WW2Wimb. {Esp P, Sir C and all going on about Enigma and World At War doc.}

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Those of you saying that the problem with the WaW Doc from 1973 is that it was made before Enigma was declassified.

Ironically a mil-hist mate who's a WW2 junkie sent me this last night.

About a 19 year old Wren saving 48k lives by changing convoy defence tactics. This wasn't partially declassified until '74/5, so wasn't available to the WaW documentary makers.

I suggest you have a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LDE9z9ZQiE

Not taking anything away from Enigma but didn't know about this 19 year old maths student Wren wargaming convoy defence and beating all the admirals until she got them to change tactics for the whole RN and all allied convoy commanders.

Strange the way I get sent this randomly by a mate after you/we'd been chatting about it all day. Almost like all of Creation is Holistic.

If you like WaW and WW2 docs/hist, you really should give it a watch. I never knew of this at all.

Doesn't change the fact that your poetry's not as good as my war and you lot all ignore the 2.5m Indian volunteers - largest all volunteer army in history - giving the Japs a slap in Asia, though.

[Peter]

Those of you saying that the problem with the WaW Doc from 1973 is that it was made before Enigma was declassified.

Ironically a mil-hist mate who's a WW2 junkie sent me this last night.

About a 19 year old Wren saving 48k lives by changing convoy defence tactics. This wasn't partially declassified until '74/5, so wasn't available to the WaW documentary makers.

I suggest you have a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LDE9z9ZQiE

Not taking anything away from Enigma but didn't know about this 19 year old maths student Wren wargaming convoy defence and beating all the admirals until she got them to change tactics for the whole RN and all allied convoy commanders.

Strange the way I get sent this randomly by a mate after you/we'd been chatting about it all day. Almost like all of Creation is Holistic.

If you like WaW and WW2 docs/hist, you really should give it a watch. I never knew of this at all.

Doesn't change the fact that your poetry's not as good as my war and you lot all ignore the 2.5m Indian volunteers - largest all volunteer army in history - giving the Japs a slap in Asia, though.

Sorry, but the bloke's voice is too annoying. I get the gist- Navy full of old white men, woman saves the day, etc etc.

My grandfather was on the convoys for a while. Not sure he had a view on tactics. He did say it was ****ing freezing.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Sorry, but the bloke's voice is too annoying. I get the gist- Navy full of old white men, woman saves the day, etc etc.

My grandfather was on the convoys for a while. Not sure he had a view on tactics. He did say it was ****ing freezing.

I think it's AI cos it's meant to be a UK accent but he/it talks about the u-boat "dove" to avoid being seen. And how she used "math."

But assuming it's true, it does fit with what I knew about convoy tactics changing when we were on the verge of defeat.

Though I was hoping for some sort of confirmation or denial of the facts. It's your lot's war, not mine. I like heavy artillery, the birth of all-arms warfare and iambic pentameters.

The lady saw the problem saying "Gosh!"
And got her slide rule out to beat the Boche.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Sorry, but the bloke's voice is too annoying. I get the gist- Navy full of old white men, woman saves the day, etc etc.

My grandfather was on the convoys for a while. Not sure he had a view on tactics. He did say it was ****ing freezing.

PS - it's here in text so does seem true.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/second-world-war/real-life-battleships-game-ww2-german-uboats/

[Peter]

I think it's AI cos it's meant to be a UK accent but he/it talks about the u-boat "dove" to avoid being seen. And how she used "math."

But assuming it's true, it does fit with what I knew about convoy tactics changing when we were on the verge of defeat.

Though I was hoping for some sort of confirmation or denial of the facts. It's your lot's war, not mine. I like heavy artillery, the birth of all-arms warfare and iambic pentameters.

The lady saw the problem saying "Gosh!"
And got her slide rule out to beat the Boche.

Not suggesting it isn't true. But the thing with WW2 is there is a lot going on and it isnt easy to pinpoint one thing that changed/turned/won a battle.

For example, the Uboats were costing Germany a fortune. As the war on the Eastern front escalated, and turned, they were spending less and less on the Atlantic war. American involvement was increasing convoy air support. Etc etc.

See.... it's a ****ing brilliant war

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Not suggesting it isn't true. But the thing with WW2 is there is a lot going on and it isnt easy to pinpoint one thing that changed/turned/won a battle.

For example, the Uboats were costing Germany a fortune. As the war on the Eastern front escalated, and turned, they were spending less and less on the Atlantic war. American involvement was increasing convoy air support. Etc etc.

See.... it's a ****ing brilliant war

This is before we got the Azores bases so there was still the u-boat gap. And I'd deffo heard of a change in convoy tactics saving us when we were on the brink of losing the Battle of the Atlantic.

But there's no point in having a brilliant war if you don't have any poetry. What is Chatteris if you're not there? I might as well be in Ypres or the Somme.

[Peter]

This is before we got the Azores bases so there was still the u-boat gap. And I'd deffo heard of a change in convoy tactics saving us when we were on the brink of losing the Battle of the Atlantic.

But there's no point in having a brilliant war if you don't have any poetry. What is Chatteris if you're not there? I might as well be in Ypres or the Somme.

I don't really see the two things as a necessary coupling. Nobody had time to write poetry at Gettysburg, Khe Sanh or Goose Green.

If anything, it's a sign you've got time on your hands. Time that would be better spent killing Germans

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

I don't really see the two things as a necessary coupling. Nobody had time to write poetry at Gettysburg, Khe Sanh or Goose Green.

If anything, it's a sign you've got time on your hands. Time that would be better spent killing Germans

Sassoon did both at once. Wiki citing Graves' Goodbye to all That:

Sassoon's periods of duty on the Western Front were marked by exceptionally brave actions, including the single-handed capture of a German trench. Armed with grenades, he scattered sixty German soldiers:

He went over with bombs in daylight, under covering fire from a couple of rifles, and scared away the occupants. A pointless feat, since instead of signalling for reinforcements, he sat down in the German trench and began reading a book of poems which he had brought with him. When he went back he did not even report. Colonel Stockwell, then in command, raged at him. The attack on Mametz Wood had been delayed for two hours because British patrols were still reported to be out. "British patrols" were Siegfried and his book of poems. "I'd have got you a DSO, if you'd only shown more sense," stormed Stockwell.


Now that, P, is hardcore. WW1 poetry 1-0 WW2 prose.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Continues:

Sassoon's bravery was so inspiring that soldiers of his company said that they felt confident only when they were accompanied by him. He often went out on night raids and bombing patrols, and demonstrated ruthless efficiency as a company commander.

Deepening depression at the horror and misery the soldiers were forced to endure produced in Sassoon a paradoxically manic courage, and he was nicknamed "Mad Jack" by his men for his near-suicidal exploits. On 27 July 1916 he was awarded the Military Cross; the citation read:

2nd Lt. Siegfried Lorraine [sic] Sassoon, 3rd (attd. 1st) Bn., R. W. Fus. For conspicuous gallantry during a raid on the enemy's trenches. He remained for 1? hours under rifle and bomb fire collecting and bringing in our wounded. Owing to his courage and determination all the killed and wounded were brought in.

Robert Graves described Sassoon as engaging in suicidal feats of bravery. Sassoon was also later recommended for the Victoria Cross.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

And Owen, after recovering at Dr River's Craiglockhart looney bin for shellshocked officers - where he met Sassoon, who convinced him to write poetry about the war and where he wrote Anthem for Doomed Youth {the original draft has hand-written comments by Sassoon} - Owen returned to France and won the MC rushing the Hun, grabbing one of their machine guns and turning it on them:

At the very end of August 1918, Owen returned to the front line. On 1 October 1918, Owen led units of the Second Manchesters to storm a number of enemy strong points near the village of Joncourt. For his courage and leadership in the Joncourt action, he was awarded the Military Cross, an award he had always sought in order to justify himself as a war poet, but the award was not gazetted until 15 February 1919. The citation followed on 30 July 1919:

2nd Lt, Wilfred Edward Salter Owen, 5th Bn. Manch. R., T.F., attd. 2nd Bn. For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty in the attack on the Fonsomme Line on October 1st/2nd, 1918. On the company commander becoming a casualty, he assumed command and showed fine leadership and resisted a heavy counter-attack. He personally manipulated a captured enemy machine gun from an isolated position and inflicted considerable losses on the enemy. Throughout he behaved most gallantly.

He died a week before the Armistice. His mother got the telegram as the bells were ringing to signify the war was over ad had been won.

WW1 poetry 3-0 WW2 prose.

Now do you see why the poetry is so important?

[Peter]

Sassoon did both at once. Wiki citing Graves' Goodbye to all That:

Sassoon's periods of duty on the Western Front were marked by exceptionally brave actions, including the single-handed capture of a German trench. Armed with grenades, he scattered sixty German soldiers:

He went over with bombs in daylight, under covering fire from a couple of rifles, and scared away the occupants. A pointless feat, since instead of signalling for reinforcements, he sat down in the German trench and began reading a book of poems which he had brought with him. When he went back he did not even report. Colonel Stockwell, then in command, raged at him. The attack on Mametz Wood had been delayed for two hours because British patrols were still reported to be out. "British patrols" were Siegfried and his book of poems. "I'd have got you a DSO, if you'd only shown more sense," stormed Stockwell.


Now that, P, is hardcore. WW1 poetry 1-0 WW2 prose.

As I said. Sitting around reading bloody poems causing an attack to be delayed. And rightly ended up on a fizzer.

If it wasn't that it was Christmas piss ups, football and sitting round eating chocolate.

Great War, my arse! Mud, blood and trench foot. Dull as ****.

Where's the irresistible drama of a D Day? The beauty of Pickett's Charge? The ingratitude of the siege of Lucknow? The brutality of the Ardennes Offensive?

Poetry is poetry. You can write it at home. Wars are won on the move and fought with guns, not shovels... or pens.

I am of course joking throughout

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

As I said. Sitting around reading bloody poems causing an attack to be delayed. And rightly ended up on a fizzer.

If it wasn't that it was Christmas piss ups, football and sitting round eating chocolate.

Great War, my arse! Mud, blood and trench foot. Dull as ****.

Where's the irresistible drama of a D Day? The beauty of Pickett's Charge? The ingratitude of the siege of Lucknow? The brutality of the Ardennes Offensive?

Poetry is poetry. You can write it at home. Wars are won on the move and fought with guns, not shovels... or pens.

I am of course joking throughout

Btw, re: the Xmas Day football match - I spent ages researching to find out the score. There were in fact several matches up and down the British sector mentioned in regimental archives, but only one records the score.

Germany beat us 3-2.

But you have to admit, Sassoon single-handedly taking a trench, seeing off 60 Boche and then sitting down in it and reading a book of poems is class.

And while Lucknow didn't have poetry, it did have Latin word play. When Napier took the Sindh province around 1842, Punch joked that he had sent a one word telegram saying Peccavi - I have sinned. This became an urban myth.

So 15 or so years later when Lucknow was relieved, a jnr officer said Nunc Fortunatus Sum. I am in luck now.

The general public gets it understanding of WW2 from movies, half of which are fake. {Why ruin the truth of the Great Escape FFS?} But we get our understanding of WW1 from the poetry. Name me one war film that captures WW2 in 1.5-4 hrs as well as five mins reading this one of Owen's captures WW1?

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

[Peter]

Btw, re: the Xmas Day football match - I spent ages researching to find out the score. There were in fact several matches up and down the British sector mentioned in regimental archives, but only one records the score.

Germany beat us 3-2.

But you have to admit, Sassoon single-handedly taking a trench, seeing off 60 Boche and then sitting down in it and reading a book of poems is class.

And while Lucknow didn't have poetry, it did have Latin word play. When Napier took the Sindh province around 1842, Punch joked that he had sent a one word telegram saying Peccavi - I have sinned. This became an urban myth.

So 15 or so years later when Lucknow was relieved, a jnr officer said Nunc Fortunatus Sum. I am in luck now.

The general public gets it understanding of WW2 from movies, half of which are fake. {Why ruin the truth of the Great Escape FFS?} But we get our understanding of WW1 from the poetry. Name me one war film that captures WW2 in 1.5-4 hrs as well as five mins reading this one of Owen's captures WW1?

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

I think many of the veterans said that the opening scenes of Saving Private Ryan were so close to the real thing that it gave them nightmares. After that, I found the film bloody boring.

Other than that, i agree most of the films don't give any real flavour of battle and are just a bit of a jolly jape.

But there is plenty of reading material. And although the vast majority of the public won't bother with the reading, I very much doubt they have read much of your poetry either.

[redgunamo]

I think many of the veterans said that the opening scenes of Saving Private Ryan were so close to the real thing that it gave them nightmares. After that, I found the film bloody boring.

Other than that, i agree most of the films don't give any real flavour of battle and are just a bit of a jolly jape.

But there is plenty of reading material. And although the vast majority of the public won't bother with the reading, I very much doubt they have read much of your poetry either.

Well they would say that, wouldn't they; probably those of vets who technically-advised the scriptwriters.

That's the thing; the trouble with war movies is that most of the best stories are actually told by people who weren't there. The Iliad, for example. Or Black Hawk Down.

Another thing is there's far too much emphasis on wars Americans were involved in and we know very well how they exaggerate everything as the only thing that really interests them is being on TV.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

I think many of the veterans said that the opening scenes of Saving Private Ryan were so close to the real thing that it gave them nightmares. After that, I found the film bloody boring.

Other than that, i agree most of the films don't give any real flavour of battle and are just a bit of a jolly jape.

But there is plenty of reading material. And although the vast majority of the public won't bother with the reading, I very much doubt they have read much of your poetry either.

There's plenty of material on both wars. The point is about popular culture. When I was a kid, we'd watch war film Films on a Sunday afternoon and read Owen in English literature at school. And I know which one gives a true impression of what the war was like.

Some Septic on a motorbike trying to jump over barbed wire, with the three Nordics who actually made it to freedom written out of the entire story? Or that Owen poem: "..... And watch the white eyes writhing in his face, / His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin; / If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood / Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs, ....."

You know he really has had nightmares about the dying man plunging at him. He had a complete breakdown. That is the reality of walk. Not Septic on motorbikes or playing in goal in a team that contains Pele. And how many war Films deal with the social realities of pressure to enlist and then conscription? {Yes, you do have the 1939 Four Feathers - but that is just boy's own fiction and set in Colonial Africa.} While Sassoon wrote this:

Squire nagged and bullied till I went to fight,
(Under Lord Derby’s Scheme). I died in hell—
(They called it Passchendaele). My wound was slight,
And I was hobbling back; and then a shell
Burst slick upon the duck-boards: so I fell
Into the bottomless mud, and lost the light.

At sermon-time, while Squire is in his pew,
He gives my gilded name a thoughtful stare:
For, though low down upon the list, I’m there;
‘In proud and glorious memory’… that’s my due.
Two bleeding years I fought in France, for Squire:
I suffered anguish that he’s never guessed.
Once I came home on leave: and then went west…
What greater glory could a man desire?

You see, poetry contains both of the investigative insight and factual realities of the best documentaries while also having the artistic and creative genius of the best Films. And more to the point, they were created in their entirety by someone who was actually there.

I wasn't actually joking when I said about World War I having the poetry. I was being deadly serious.

The public today may not read the poetry as they used to. But likewise, these younger generations won't have watched the two documentary series we've been talking about, or the old war films we used to watch on a Sunday afternoon, or Humphrey Jennings' amazing World War II propaganda documentaries {such as "London can take it"* and "Listen to Britain."}

I take it you know about Humphrey Jennings, the co-founder of Mass Observation? The UK led the world in documentary film 1930-50. And Jennings was the finest exponent.

London Can Take it was a 10 minute film made in 1940. The words were written by Jennings but they got the most famous Cinema news American war correspondent {who was a complete Anglophile} to persuade the Yanks we were still up for the fight.

Bollox, I haven't got time to finish this now. The original was 10 minutes long. Here's the band PSB {who made Spitfire} cutting it up with their music into a three minute version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu4Rr07bgVQ&list=RDCu4Rr07bgVQ&start_radio=1