So with the league all but over, let's switch to another subject - Jeffrey Epstein?

[IUFG]

is it just me or have some people lost their perspective a little?

As abhorrent as he may have been, surely having contact with an abhorrent cretin is not illegal? And speaking of abhorrent, the former prince is by all accounts an entitled c*nt of the highest order, but that is also not illegal.

I see the latest evidence shows an email in which Epstein suggests he have dinner with a 25 year old Russian woman. And a few pics of him on the floor next to another woman whose age we do not know, both fully clothed.

This is starting to get a little to metoo for my taste, if I'm honest. He's dead, and good riddance, but that hardly means that everyone who ever knew him is a criminal.

Just watched today's PMQs. Starmer is a dead man walking, Shirley..?

[redgunamo]

Just watched today's PMQs. Starmer is a dead man walking, Shirley..?

He's been that way for a while, hasn't he. This may be his punishment, his penance.

There's a lot of it going about as nobody wants any more war and how else do you break all this extremely troubling news to the public without a meltdown.

[IUFG]

He's been that way for a while, hasn't he. This may be his punishment, his penance.

There's a lot of it going about as nobody wants any more war and how else do you break all this extremely troubling news to the public without a meltdown.

Just came in and (accidentally) watched Question Time.

:shudder:

He's gone soon.

[redgunamo]

I think you've totally missed the point of the '60s, C.

Religion had been in sharp decline in the west, certainly in GB, since WW1. We could accept a God who gave us an empire but not one who killed half the seed of Europe one by one in the trenches.

Seance mysticism replaced the CoE post-war as mothers tried to contact their dead sons' spirits.

By post WW2, the CofE was basically not much more than the Tory party at prayer.

Then the '60s came along and we invented the hippy scene with the Beatles going to India and showing that real religion is Vedic and you don't need holy books and priests, you smoke puff like the sadhus and/or bosh acid and Commune with the Divine yourself.

Hippies didn't reject religion, we reinvented it in the west in the same way Rastafarianism did for the blacks in the Carib and then here.

Pwoppa religions, see? God doesn't want you to just have a tiny sip of cheap wine on a Sunday, He wants you to get off your tits all the time the better to know Him.

There was no point to "The Sixties". Everyone there, the whole bunch of them, sold out.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

There was no point to "The Sixties". Everyone there, the whole bunch of them, sold out.

Just politically, the '60s {by which I mean the hippy period that starts around Revolver or Wilson winning his second term and a big majority} gave us divorce, abortion, race relations and legalised homosexuality. How is that a sell out?

It started pwoppa youth counter-culture. The anti-Viet war movement succeeded in the end. The whole hippy India thing comes from there. And we wouldn't have had Punk or the rave scene without it.

And given that's where the whole British new age traveller scene and free festies started, I don't see how you can say they sold out. Dropped out, yes, sold out, no.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive
But to be young was very heaven.

[redgunamo]

Just politically, the '60s {by which I mean the hippy period that starts around Revolver or Wilson winning his second term and a big majority} gave us divorce, abortion, race relations and legalised homosexuality. How is that a sell out?

It started pwoppa youth counter-culture. The anti-Viet war movement succeeded in the end. The whole hippy India thing comes from there. And we wouldn't have had Punk or the rave scene without it.

And given that's where the whole British new age traveller scene and free festies started, I don't see how you can say they sold out. Dropped out, yes, sold out, no.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive
But to be young was very heaven.

"Sacrificed their values and integrity for money, fame; betrayed their supposed principles for mainstream acceptance."

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

"Sacrificed their values and integrity for money, fame; betrayed their supposed principles for mainstream acceptance."

Which doesn't apply to the original new age travellers nor to the social reforms of Jenkins/Wilson. I fail to see what relevance that quote has to either.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm only talking about the hippies in the UK, not the US cos I couldn't give a toss about Septic history so don't study it whatsoever.

The Hippy scene was a British invention, the academic consensus being we'd created it in London by '66, why the San Fran "be in" wasn't until '67. They killed it at Altamont while we just started Glasto instead. {Which didn't see out until Mean Fiddler took over the security in the noughties. Because me and hundreds of thousands of my mates bunked in free every year, even after they'd been forced to dith the traveller's field.}

They may have been selling hippy wigs in Woolworths, man, but that doesn't negate the unparalleled social, cultural and political transformation that the latter half of the decade wrought.

In some ways, the Romanticism that replaced the Enlightenment in the period from 1780-1830 didn't reach it's apogee in the decades after 1830, but in the period from the hippy scene, through punk and teknivals until the digital revolution slowly killed it all off.

For better or worse, the modern political world is based on one where divorce, abortion and homosexuality are legal and censorship and racial discrimination aren't. And they are as quintessentially '60s changes and George Harrison playing a Sitar on Revolver.

If you say there was no point to the '60s then you might as well say there was no point to the Reformation, Enlightenment and Romanticism that had spent the past 450 years building up to it.

Western music changed as much in that decade as western art did in the final two centuries of the Renaissance.

[redgunamo]

Which doesn't apply to the original new age travellers nor to the social reforms of Jenkins/Wilson. I fail to see what relevance that quote has to either.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm only talking about the hippies in the UK, not the US cos I couldn't give a toss about Septic history so don't study it whatsoever.

The Hippy scene was a British invention, the academic consensus being we'd created it in London by '66, why the San Fran "be in" wasn't until '67. They killed it at Altamont while we just started Glasto instead. {Which didn't see out until Mean Fiddler took over the security in the noughties. Because me and hundreds of thousands of my mates bunked in free every year, even after they'd been forced to dith the traveller's field.}

They may have been selling hippy wigs in Woolworths, man, but that doesn't negate the unparalleled social, cultural and political transformation that the latter half of the decade wrought.

In some ways, the Romanticism that replaced the Enlightenment in the period from 1780-1830 didn't reach it's apogee in the decades after 1830, but in the period from the hippy scene, through punk and teknivals until the digital revolution slowly killed it all off.

For better or worse, the modern political world is based on one where divorce, abortion and homosexuality are legal and censorship and racial discrimination aren't. And they are as quintessentially '60s changes and George Harrison playing a Sitar on Revolver.

If you say there was no point to the '60s then you might as well say there was no point to the Reformation, Enlightenment and Romanticism that had spent the past 450 years building up to it.

Western music changed as much in that decade as western art did in the final two centuries of the Renaissance.

The most important job any species has is to breed and raise its young. If you ignore that injunction then, of course, success is easy. The Sixties' most persuasive, eloquent advocates couldn't raise families; their beliefs, behaviour and teachings did not "breed true", as the hound fancy puts it.

No future. As a soldier, I say it loud; it was always a death cult. As a family man, I say it even louder

[Peter]

The most important job any species has is to breed and raise its young. If you ignore that injunction then, of course, success is easy. The Sixties' most persuasive, eloquent advocates couldn't raise families; their beliefs, behaviour and teachings did not "breed true", as the hound fancy puts it.

No future. As a soldier, I say it loud; it was always a death cult. As a family man, I say it even louder

My parents were hippies. They raised me.

I rest my case

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

My parents were hippies. They raised me.

I rest my case

You know when we were discussing music we listened to at 15 and I linked that C64 8-bit music and you said that explains a lot.

Well, that explains a lot.

[Peter]

You know when we were discussing music we listened to at 15 and I linked that C64 8-bit music and you said that explains a lot.

Well, that explains a lot.

Yes, it does. Would be odd if it didn't

The enduring legacy of the 60s is the dominance of youth culture.

[redgunamo]

My parents were hippies. They raised me.

I rest my case

The mark of good parenting is that it produces good parents

[redgunamo]

Yes, it does. Would be odd if it didn't

The enduring legacy of the 60s is the dominance of youth culture.

Yeah, but everyone knows youths/young people are stupid

[Peter]

The mark of good parenting is that it produces good parents

That's just moving the goalposts...

[Peter]

Yeah, but everyone knows youths/young people are stupid

Youths don't.