So the Archbish of C said the EU is ‘the greatest dream realised for human beings

[Peter]

What has been largely missing from the whole saga imo is the coherent left-leaning critique of the EU, as expressed by Peter Shore and Tony Benn in the old days. Those on the right may well be sincere when talking about accountability but there will always be the suspicion that they simply don't like furrins.

Diana Johnstone wrote a piece about Italy for Consortium News, where she said:



https://consortiumnews.com/2018/06/0...r-cannot-hold/

THe future was supposed to be proportional representation which tends to lead to minority or coalition government and inevitably to centrist politics. THis is probably why the rest of europe is more comfortable with the EU than we are. When we have an election we want a clear result.

I am all for democracy, up to a point.

[Burney]

What has been largely missing from the whole saga imo is the coherent left-leaning critique of the EU, as expressed by Peter Shore and Tony Benn in the old days. Those on the right may well be sincere when talking about accountability but there will always be the suspicion that they simply don't like furrins.

Diana Johnstone wrote a piece about Italy for Consortium News, where she said:



https://consortiumnews.com/2018/06/0...r-cannot-hold/

Are lefties immune from suspicions of xenophobia and racism, then?

Anyway, the left-wing argument against the EU was missing because the left-wing is so riddled with identity politics that it is hidebound by identity politics and its members terrified of being labelled racist by doing things like opposing mass immigration of cheap labour. For that reason, the innate corporatism of the EU gets a pass.

[Burney]

THe future was supposed to be proportional representation which tends to lead to minority or coalition government and inevitably to centrist politics. THis is probably why the rest of europe is more comfortable with the EU than we are. When we have an election we want a clear result.

I am all for democracy, up to a point.

The EU was designed to solve a problem we never had: namely the failure of liberal democracy to prevent the rise of extremism and militarism. That's why Europeans are more comfortable with the EU than we are.

[Peter]

I can accept your ad hominem attack with equanimity, p. I'm the bigger man.

And 'disinterest' doesn't mean 'lack of interest'.

Ad hominem- How rude.

It is a fact that the EU has a democratic deficit. It is also a fact that if it didnt, you would still have voted leave.

Tell me I am wrong.....

[Peter]

The EU was designed to solve a problem we never had: namely the failure of liberal democracy to prevent the rise of extremism and militarism. That's why Europeans are more comfortable with the EU than we are.

THat is ostensibly the same point.

[Burney]

Ad hominem- How rude.

It is a fact that the EU has a democratic deficit. It is also a fact that if it didnt, you would still have voted leave.

Tell me I am wrong.....

The question is silly because I simply don't believe a supra-national body with rights of governance over 27 very separate and very different countries can ever be democratic.

[Peter]

The question is silly because I simply don't believe a supra-national body with rights of governance over 27 very separate and very different countries can ever be democratic.

THe question in the referendum was silly but you answered that one happily enough.

Permit me my silly question and give me a silly answer if you must

[Ash]

Are lefties immune from suspicions of xenophobia and racism, then?

No, as when any criticism of the government of Israel is considered anti-semitic, but apart from the fear of being called racist which is probably a bit more likely to be felt by people on the left, there is the old tradition of internationalism. Workers of the world unite ... as the man said.

Anyway, the left-wing argument against the EU was missing because the left-wing is so riddled with identity politics that it is hidebound by identity politics and its members terrified of being labelled racist by doing things like opposing mass immigration of cheap labour. For that reason, the innate corporatism of the EU gets a pass.

Indeed, which is more or less what the article I linked to concludes. If you scroll down to the last section she talks about this, and how "Leftist denial of the problem leaves its exploitation and resolution to the extreme right."

Italy is interesting because there seems to be some semblance of recognition from elements of the left, who are prepared to do pragmatic deals with elements of the right over common ground with that and other issues, including foreign policy. For me the old concepts of left and right have long been broken. Both should be thinking about how to deal with the common foe - the ruling class, and how the 1% dominate the 99%.

[Ash]

THe future was supposed to be proportional representation which tends to lead to minority or coalition government and inevitably to centrist politics. THis is probably why the rest of europe is more comfortable with the EU than we are. When we have an election we want a clear result.

I am all for democracy, up to a point.

But the rest of Europe is not entirely comfortable with the EU. Germany is very comfortable, because they get to do most of the production, and they get to tell Italy, Greece and others what they are allowed to do and who they are allowed to appoint to prominent positions. "The markets will tell Italians the right way to vote". Blimey, thank god for the markets, eh?

[Peter]

But the rest of Europe is not entirely comfortable with the EU. Germany is very comfortable, because they get to do most of the production, and they get to tell Italy, Greece and others what they are allowed to do and who they are allowed to appoint to prominent positions. "The markets will tell Italians the right way to vote". Blimey, thank god for the markets, eh?

No, I am sure the rest are not comfortable with it. But I dont think they ever saw it as completely alien the way we did.

We are a rather difficult people to deal with it, and rightly so