Quote Originally Posted by Monty92 View Post
So, the behaviour of a father in Afghanistan who stones his own daughter to death for adultery, as prescribed by the hadith, is not the fault of Islam itself.

A citizen of Saudi Arabia who openly advocates death for apostasy, supports his government in applying such a law and expresses his enthusiasm for it by attending public executions, is not the fault of Islam, even though it explicitly prescribes this punishment.

A law-maker in Iran who in good conscience helps to implement the death penalty for homosexuality, because he believes Islamic scripture, which commands that homosexuals be killed, is the infallible word of God, but this is not the fault of Islam.

Even though all of these actions are at the direct behest of the religion you claim should not be blamed...

On another note, you wrongly assume I absolve other religions for their past (and enduring) moral failings. I do absolutely no such thing.

If I am singling out Islam, it is because Islam remains an intolerably dangerous religion (dangerous to other muslims far more than to non-muslims) whereas the others do not. That is not to say that other religions do not continue to do untold harm, but to no way near the same extent as Islam.

I think it’s incredible that you deny the primary role of religion in these matters and how different things would be without it. It is indisputable that without Islam (or certainly with LESS Islam) these societies would have had a far better chance of adopting modern western values. For starters, without Islam (or any other religion), no geopolitical events would have created a climate of religious devotion in which apostates are executed (by definition this is true, because without religion there would be no such thing as apostasy) and there’s every chance that women and gays might be spared by now as well.

The other point is that the geopolitics you rightly refer to as a factor in how these societies have failed to progress is also inextricably linked with religion. This is because Jihad is justified by Islamic scripture when Muslim societies are being attacked. Given this, how can you possibly separate geopolitics from religion, as you seem so keen to do?
So we can agree on one thing then… other religions have potential for untold harm and are capable of being fundamentally separated from modern values by those who wish to do so.

This leads neatly on to the area where we seem to disagree. That it is not the fault of Islam but the fault of an interpretation of Islam- an interpretation that every single Muslim I have ever met, from Palmers Green to Las Vegas via Malaysia, does not share. I blame this interpretation every bit as much as you do. The difference between us is that I seem to be willing to divorce this interpretation from Islam itself and the very many more modern, peaceful interpretations accepting by hundreds of millions of muslims throughout the globe.

I take this to mean that Islam, like every other potentially lethal and ludicrous religion, is capable of change, of modernisation and of a more generous and peaceful interpretation that doesn’t require regular murder.

Look at Malaysia. A Muslim country. Homosexuality is illegal, particularly in public, and carries a prison sentence. Not stoning to death. And the attitude is slowly changing. The country is not becoming ‘less Muslim’. Simply more accepting (albeit slowly) of a modern world that it wishes to be a part of. You could argue that this is at least partly due to a western influence over two centuries, and in fact it is.

On the subject of geopolitics, you seem to be trying to sell Islam as the sole barrier to an acceptance of western values. Is it a barrier? Yes, of course. Not just as a religion but because it forms the backbone of their moral code, their notions of justice and their form of government. But also note that all the examples you give come from a certain part of the world where geopolitics has played havoc with people’s lives for generations. There is a distinct difference, geopolitically, between Malaysia and Saudi Arabia- many, actually. It is a little naïve to think that religion is the only one.

Either way….the fact remains that those countries adopting a more modern interpretation of Islam are not causing us problems. This is how religion is supposed to work in the modern world. Perhaps the more complicated point is which interpretation (the modern or the fundamental) is the real *******isation of Islam- but let us not get into that…..