Yup. Nothing undemocratic about that there EU.

:hehe:

https://order-order.com/2019/03/28/m...ay-article-13/

So thirteen MEPs were tricked into voting the wrong way on a significant bill which passed by five votes. The EU agreed to modify their voting records but not the result.

Thankfully we have WES to come and explain how this is all a perfectly fine. It's democracy Jim, just not as we know it. Voters of Europe Unite! We have nothing to lose but our memes!

Has this story has appeared much outside of Guido Fawkes' website do you know?

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Originally Posted by Ash

So thirteen MEPs were tricked into voting the wrong way on a significant bill which passed by five votes. The EU agreed to modify their voting records but not the result.

Thankfully we have WES to come and explain how this is all a perfectly fine. It's democracy Jim, just not as we know it. Voters of Europe Unite! We have nothing to lose but our memes!

Has this story has appeared much outside of Guido Fawkes' website do you know?

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I’m going to guess not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

:hehe:

https://order-order.com/2019/03/28/m...ay-article-13/

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So as ad hominem is one of your favourite debating tools, allow me to point out that this is a blog written by someone described as a ‘right wing political blogger’ who used to have a daily column in the Sun. so no chance of anti EU bias here :hehe:

I also love the way he describes MEPs as ‘robotically’ voting as though they never actually think about it. Not to mention a voting process being described as undemocratic.

Honestly, if this is the best you can do the EU must be terribly democratic :hehe:

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Originally Posted by WES

So as ad hominem is one of your favourite debating tools, allow me to point out that this is a blog written by someone described as a ‘right wing political blogger’ who used to have a daily column in the Sun. so no chance of anti EU bias here :hehe:

I also love the way he describes MEPs as ‘robotically’ voting as though they never actually think about it. Not to mention a voting process being described as undemocratic.

Honestly, if this is the best you can do the EU must be terribly democratic ��

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Are the facts of the story as reported unture, then?

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Originally Posted by Sir C

Are the facts of the story as reported unture, then?

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I have no idea. Nor do you. Nor Burney nor Ash nor the chap that wrote it.

His basis for the story is described as ‘Guido understands’ - no quotes, no evidence, nothing.

It’s a blog, an idiot with an opinion, a bias and access to the internet, nothing more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WES

I have no idea. Nor do you. Nor Burney nor Ash nor the chap that wrote it.

His basis for the story is described as ‘Guido understands’ - no quotes, no evidence, nothing.

It’s a blog, an idiot with an opinion, a bias and access to the internet, nothing more.

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No quotes other than the, you know, quotes?

Funny how thew story was also reported by that bastion of anti-EU propaganda, The Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...ot-have-passed

As self-*****ings go, you've excelled yourself here, old chap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WES

So as ad hominem is one of your favourite debating tools, allow me to point out that this is a blog written by someone described as a ‘right wing political blogger’ who used to have a daily column in the Sun. so no chance of anti EU bias here :hehe:

I also love the way he describes MEPs as ‘robotically’ voting as though they never actually think about it. Not to mention a voting process being described as undemocratic.

Honestly, if this is the best you can do the EU must be terribly democratic :hehe:

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But 13 of them just admitted voting without thinking about it. :shrug: Unless this right-wing blogger just made it up, of course.

Except oh, wait.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...ot-have-passed

He got the story from that well-known swivel-eyed right wing newspaper The Guardian.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WES

I have no idea. Nor do you. Nor Burney nor Ash nor the chap that wrote it.

His basis for the story is described as ‘Guido understands’ - no quotes, no evidence, nothing.

It’s a blog, an idiot with an opinion, a bias and access to the internet, nothing more.

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:hehe: :clap:

Who's the fùckin idiot now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir C

No quotes other than the, you know, quotes?

Funny how thew story was also reported by that bastion of anti-EU propaganda, The Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...ot-have-passed

As self-*****ings go, you've excelled yourself here, old chap.

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Top *****ing c, though our moose raping friend is no fool and will be feverishly trawling the internets, just as you did, until he finds a source that lends weight to his argument. Have your rebuttals and refutations ready!

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Originally Posted by Herbert Augustus Chapman

Top *****ing c, though our moose raping friend is no fool and will be feverishly trawling the internets, just as you did, until he finds a source that lends weight to his argument. Have your rebuttals and refutations ready!

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There's no coming back from that, h. He's like Danny Mills when Titi nutmegged him.

His only course of action now is to admit he's been royally *****ed with a little dignity.

Does he possess a little dignity, do you think?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir C

No quotes other than the, you know, quotes?

Funny how thew story was also reported by that bastion of anti-EU propaganda, The Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...ot-have-passed

As self-*****ings go, you've excelled yourself here, old chap.

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I’m afraid not, you should read both articles more carefully, Charles. The blogger says that MEPs were ‘tricked’ into voting one way and uses this as a justification for claiming that the EU is undemocratic.

The Guardian article does nothing of the kind. It describes MEP having voted incorrectly by accident and the EU taking the vote as official anyway.

As I said, if this is the best they can do...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir C

There's no coming back from that, h. He's like Danny Mills when Titi nutmegged him.

His only course of action now is to admit he's been royally *****ed with a little dignity.

Does he possess a little dignity, do you think?

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Well I'm somewhat loathe to say anything unpleasant about him c as I understand he's a rather large unit and may bash me up :-(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WES

I’m afraid not, you should read both articles more carefully, Charles. The blogger says that MEPs were ‘tricked’ into voting one way and uses this as a justification for claiming that the EU is undemocratic.

The Guardian article does nothing of the kind. It describes MEP having voted incorrectly by accident and the EU taking the vote as official anyway.

As I said, if this is the best they can do...

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:shrug: The point of the story is that MEPs voted incorrectly, in numbers sufficient to change the result of the vote, had their incorrect votes 'corrected' in the record, but the result was not amended. Whether Guido's emotive language is justified or helpful (and I would tend to suggest it isn't) the facts remain as reported.

The organisation is undeniably corrupt, undemocratic and unaccountable. How you can draw any other conclusion mystifies me.

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Originally Posted by Ash

But 13 of them just admitted voting without thinking about it. :shrug: Unless this right-wing blogger just made it up, of course.

Except oh, wait.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...ot-have-passed

He got the story from that well-known swivel-eyed right wing newspaper The Guardian.

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No, 13 of them admitted they accidentally voted the wrong way. The bias in the original blog is the way he interpreted what had occurred and attributed it to the EU not being democratic. Something the Guardian did not do.

You’re reading what you want to read, Ash

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Originally Posted by Herbert Augustus Chapman

Well I'm somewhat loathe to say anything unpleasant about him c as I understand he's a rather large unit and may bash me up :-(

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He's all mouth and would drop his guts if confronted by an Englishman.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir C

:shrug: The point of the story is that MEPs voted incorrectly, in numbers sufficient to change the result of the vote, had their incorrect votes 'corrected' in the record, but the result was not amended. Whether Guido's emotive language is justified or helpful (and I would tend to suggest it isn't) the facts remain as reported.

The organisation is undeniably corrupt, undemocratic and unaccountable. How you can draw any other conclusion mystifies me.

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I have no strong view on how democratic the EU is or is not other than that I don’t agree that it is not at all democratic. And this example proves nothing in that regard. :shrug:

Also, you almost got it correct. Had the MEPs voted as they wished amendments would have been allowed but there was no guarantee that they then would have been voted for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir C

He's all mouth and would drop his guts if confronted by an Englishman.

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I seem to have trouble standing my ground since I became a woman c.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir C

:shrug: The point of the story is that MEPs voted incorrectly, in numbers sufficient to change the result of the vote, had their incorrect votes 'corrected' in the record, but the result was not amended. Whether Guido's emotive language is justified or helpful (and I would tend to suggest it isn't) the facts remain as reported.

The organisation is undeniably corrupt, undemocratic and unaccountable. How you can draw any other conclusion mystifies me.

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And one more thing - do you not find it surprising that Germans, French, Spanish and 24 other countries can accept being governed (at some level) by a corrupt, undemocratic and unaccountable body? They’re pretty intelligent, educated people you know. And before you drop the ‘yes, but we’re English’ line you might want to consider that 49% of Brits we’re happy with that situation as well.

It’s almost as though it might not be true :rubchin:

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Originally Posted by WES

And one more thing - do you not find it surprising that Germans, French, Spanish and 24 other countries can accept being governed (at some level) by a corrupt, undemocratic and unaccountable body? They’re pretty intelligent, educated people you know. And before you drop the ‘yes, but we’re English’ line you might want to consider that 49% of Brits we’re happy with that situation as well.

It’s almost as though it might not be true :rubchin:

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You don't see a growing body of anti-EU sentiment thorughout member states? Really? You haven't noticed that?

Weird flex but OK.

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Originally Posted by Sir C

You don't see a growing body of anti-EU sentiment thorughout member states? Really? You haven't noticed that?

Weird flex but OK.

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Yes, I see that growing sentiment. But I don’t see any of them voting to leave. Something I would expect to see if the EU really was what you claim it to be.

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Originally Posted by WES

Yes, I see that growing sentiment. But I don’t see any of them voting to leave. Something I would expect to see if the EU really was what you claim it to be.

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The common sentiment held by Remainers about Leavers is that they are too ignorant and ill-informed to see beyond the caricature of the EU ("bendy bananas", "blue passports",) and fail to understand why it is in essence a force for good.

But perhaps it is Remainers who are too ignorant and ill-informed to see beyond the caricature of Leavers and fail to understand that they may simply hold entirely reasonable and legitimate objections to the philosophical ideology that underpins the EU.

Yeah, that's the whole point, see? European people do whatever they're told to do by their betters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WES

Yes, I see that growing sentiment. But I don’t see any of them voting to leave. Something I would expect to see if the EU really was what you claim it to be.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by WES

No, 13 of them admitted they accidentally voted the wrong way. The bias in the original blog is the way he interpreted what had occurred and attributed it to the EU not being democratic. Something the Guardian did not do.

You’re reading what you want to read, Ash

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Are you quite sure that I am the one reading what I want to read?

In fact the Guardian piece does cite a source that accuses the EU of switching the order in a deliberate attempt to manipulate the outcome.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...-too-bad.shtml

The same piece also shows how the EU recognised the error on their voting record, essentially correcting it, while refusing to correct the important outcome on the bill. They have clearly subverted what democratic processes exist in the machinery, to force a very controversial law through, with substantial impacts on many aspects of internet use, including free speech and sharing of information. Check out the link tax. We might not, in future, even be able to post the links and quotes that we have on this thread discussing it.

In short, everything the right-wing loon posted on his site is sourced, and not made up as you claimed. And while some of his language may have been a leetle beet rhetorical (god forbid any of us ever do that on the internet), his point stands. There is evidence of procedural manipulation to subvert democracy and impose an authoritarian law. Textbook EU, some might say. Excuse the rhetoric. ;-)

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Originally Posted by Monty92

The common sentiment held by Remainers about Leavers is that they are too ignorant and ill-informed to see beyond the caricature of the EU ("bendy bananas", "blue passports",) and fail to understand why it is in essence a force for good.

But perhaps it is Remainers who are too ignorant and ill-informed to see beyond the caricature of Leavers and fail to understand that they may simply hold entirely reasonable and legitimate objections to the philosophical ideology that underpins the EU.

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GPWM. One irony is that while Leavers are portrayed as knuckle-dragging xylophones spewing bigotry and hatred, most of the bigotry and hatred I have witnessed in our great, progressive metropolis here has been directed against Leavers.

Yet the biggest irony of all, and one which might persuade actual racists like you to vote Remain in the return leg, is that Remain is in fact the option for those who want a whiter Britain. Were we to actually leave, any requirements to import labour would open up to the world on an equal basis, rather than the predominantly white European reserve army of cheap labour that the economy has become addicted to - at least in some sectors, and particularly in London.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

:hehe:

https://order-order.com/2019/03/28/m...ay-article-13/

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What is this trash you're reading. "Euro-Guido" forsooth. Get a hobby bro. Macrame.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash

GPWM. One irony is that while Leavers are portrayed as knuckle-dragging xylophones spewing bigotry and hatred, most of the bigotry and hatred I have witnessed in our great, progressive metropolis here has been directed against Leavers.

Yet the biggest irony of all, and one which might persuade actual racists like you to vote Remain in the return leg, is that Remain is in fact the option for those who want a whiter Britain. Were we to actually leave, any requirements to import labour would open up to the world on an equal basis, rather than the predominantly white European reserve army of cheap labour that the economy has become addicted to - at least in some sectors, and particularly in London.

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I am NOT an "actual racist". Allans aren't a race and some of my favourite Awimbers are black :shrug: (not that fat lass who used to post)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash

Are you quite sure that I am the one reading what I want to read?

In fact the Guardian piece does cite a source that accuses the EU of switching the order in a deliberate attempt to manipulate the outcome.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...-too-bad.shtml

The same piece also shows how the EU recognised the error on their voting record, essentially correcting it, while refusing to correct the important outcome on the bill. They have clearly subverted what democratic processes exist in the machinery, to force a very controversial law through, with substantial impacts on many aspects of internet use, including free speech and sharing of information. Check out the link tax. We might not, in future, even be able to post the links and quotes that we have on this thread discussing it.

In short, everything the right-wing loon posted on his site is sourced, and not made up as you claimed. And while some of his language may have been a leetle beet rhetorical (god forbid any of us ever do that on the internet), his point stands. There is evidence of procedural manipulation to subvert democracy and impose an authoritarian law. Textbook EU, some might say. Excuse the rhetoric. ;-)

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I think it is fair to say that the EU has huge problems....as done the UK, we had a vote and our elected MP's won't carry it out, is that democracy working any better or worse than what the EU have done?

We can hold our elected mps to account by voting them out.

I can’t believe this still needs emphasising.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pokster

I think it is fair to say that the EU has huge problems....as done the UK, we had a vote and our elected MP's won't carry it out, is that democracy working any better or worse than what the EU have done?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pokster

I think it is fair to say that the EU has huge problems....as done the UK, we had a vote and our elected MP's won't carry it out, is that democracy working any better or worse than what the EU have done?

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They will be answerable to the electorate in the next election. Both main parties said they would honour the referendum result in their manifestos. The LibNonDems said they would ignore it won almost no seats, and UKIPs vote collapsed because its job was done.

The failure to honour the result will be punished. How many seats can 17 odd million win all voting for a new party?

Who would get your vote if there were a GE today?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash

They will be answerable to the electorate in the next election. Both main parties said they would honour the referendum result in their manifestos. The LibNonDems said they would ignore it won almost no seats, and UKIPs vote collapsed because its job was done.

The failure to honour the result will be punished. How many seats can 17 odd million win all voting for a new party?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Who would get your vote if there were a GE today?

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I'd look on the ticket to see what the options were. I'm sure some genuine Brexit candidate would stand in the constituency where the Labour leader has sold out his long-held euro-sceptic principals in exchange for power.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monty92

We can hold our elected mps to account by voting them out.

I can’t believe this still needs emphasising.

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You can also vote out your MEP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash

They will be answerable to the electorate in the next election. Both main parties said they would honour the referendum result in their manifestos. The LibNonDems said they would ignore it won almost no seats, and UKIPs vote collapsed because its job was done.

The failure to honour the result will be punished. How many seats can 17 odd million win all voting for a new party?

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17 million people will not vote in a GE just on EU policy, the last election still retruend a huge number of remainer MP's, MP's also go along party lines a lot of the time, hence why Labour do not want to be seen agreeing to a Tory leave deal, and vice versa.

Eu is corrupt but to say it is fundamanetly worse than the UK is *******s imo

No, P. They are foreigners, they even speak foreign. They're so corrupt we can't even understand how corrupt they are.

That's how corrupt they are!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pokster

17 million people will not vote in a GE just on EU policy, the last election still retruend a huge number of remainer MP's, MP's also go along party lines a lot of the time, hence why Labour do not want to be seen agreeing to a Tory leave deal, and vice versa.

Eu is corrupt but to say it is fundamanetly worse than the UK is *******s imo

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Right. Whereas the eurotrash know they can only get real change by smashing the place up. And probably not even then.

The Germans, for example, are still waiting for their chance to vote on re-unification. But they can't say anything because Nazis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monty92

We can hold our elected mps to account by voting them out.

I can’t believe this still needs emphasising.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pokster

17 million people will not vote in a GE just on EU policy, the last election still retruend a huge number of remainer MP's, MP's also go along party lines a lot of the time, hence why Labour do not want to be seen agreeing to a Tory leave deal, and vice versa.

Eu is corrupt but to say it is fundamanetly worse than the UK is *******s imo

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People voted for parties that promised to honour the result in their manifestos, rather than the Euro tilt of the actual candidates. I suspect they will not do that again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pokster

You can also vote out your MEP.

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We do not elect MEPs on the basis that they will form a government to carry out a manifesto.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash

We do not elect MEPs on the basis that they will form a government to carry out a manifesto.

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You vote for your MEP to carry out what is in his manifesto, exattly the same as in the UK

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monty92

We can hold our elected mps to account by voting them out.

I can’t believe this still needs emphasising.

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Sadly, Remainers have shown themselves quite capable of trotting this utter drivel out over and over again - anything as long as they don’t have to face up to the monstrous fact that they voted to make themselves less free and to be governed by foreigners they cannot remove or control in any way in exchange for a quiet life, a few quid in their pocket and some bullshÃ*t about international brotherhood.

They are weak and cowardly people. :shrug: