Is Wenger being selfish?

[Burney]

On one hand you are insisting that market rules apply, and fans are just stupid versions of customers for coming back, but if those customers demand value for money, as customers do in every other business you lampoon this as absurd. Can't have it both ways, imo.

Perhaps a way to understand it is to recognise that the football club holds a monopoly over supporters of that football club.

I don't regard anyone who demands value for money as absurd. They are perfectly entitled to expect value for money, but only if they are prepared to use the other part of the customer's bargain and withdraw their custom if they don't get it. If they refuse to do that, they have no right to expect anything other than to get screwed.

As for your monopoly argument, it falls down on the basis that the monopoly is emotional and imposed purely by the customer on him- or herself. It's voluntary and imaginary, not imposed or real.

Now if you argued that the mere act of going to the football - that physical act of belonging - is actually what they're paying for, then you'd have a better case. However, if you accept that, then there is no way of defining what 'value for money' means in that context and thus no grounds for customer complaint as long as the club keeps letting them in.

[Ash]

I don't regard anyone who demands value for money as absurd. They are perfectly entitled to expect value for money, but only if they are prepared to use the other part of the customer's bargain and withdraw their custom if they don't get it. If they refuse to do that, they have no right to expect anything other than to get screwed.

As for your monopoly argument, it falls down on the basis that the monopoly is emotional and imposed purely by the customer on him- or herself. It's voluntary and imaginary, not imposed or real.

Now if you argued that the mere act of going to the football - that physical act of belonging - is actually what they're paying for, then you'd have a better case. However, if you accept that, then there is no way of defining what 'value for money' means in that context and thus no grounds for customer complaint as long as the club keeps letting them in.

There is no elasticity of supply, though. We can't say "I'll come back in a years time please when you've debugged this iteration of the product" because there are only a limited number available. Most people aren't actually demanding trophies (though if they don't they get castigated by the pundosphere for accepting 'mediocrity'), but they are expecting the 11 massively-paid cùnts on the pitch to at least make some kind of effort. They should also expect a level of competence from the officials, with any technological help they may need, as with all other sports.

[Burney]

We can't say "I'll come back in a years time please when you've debugged this iteration of the product"

Yes. Yes you can. That's the point. There is no legal, moral or physical imperative making you go to the football. You can simply choose not to go because what you see on the pitch does not match what your expectations based on what you're paying. You just don't get to watch live games and save yourself plenty quid. Or you can go to another club like a lower-league team.

Indeed, one could argue that, by not withdrawing your custom (and thus allowing the club to carry on with what it's doing with no financial penalty), the fans are actually perpetuating what they see as the problem. So, far from being victims in this situation, by failing to act decisively, they are complicit.

[Ash]

Yes. Yes you can. That's the point. There is no legal, moral or physical imperative making you go to the football. Indeed, one could argue that, by not withdrawing your custom (and thus allowing the club to carry on with what it's doing with no financial penalty), the fans are actually perpetuating what they see as the problem. So, far from being victims in this situation, by failing to act decisively, they are complicit.

You can walk away, but you can't come back in a year's time, because you'll have given up your ST. (Unless you've loaned it). That's what I mean by inelasticity of supply.

[redgunamo]

Yes. Yes you can. That's the point. There is no legal, moral or physical imperative making you go to the football. You can simply choose not to go because what you see on the pitch does not match what your expectations based on what you're paying. You just don't get to watch live games and save yourself plenty quid. Or you can go to another club like a lower-league team.

Indeed, one could argue that, by not withdrawing your custom (and thus allowing the club to carry on with what it's doing with no financial penalty), the fans are actually perpetuating what they see as the problem. So, far from being victims in this situation, by failing to act decisively, they are complicit.

No, it's more like paying tax; everyone still does it regardless. In fact, it's *exactly* like paying tax, albeit with a personal, private imperative, rather than merely a legally-imposed one.

[Ash]

No, it's more like paying tax; everyone still does it regardless. In fact, it's *exactly* like paying tax, albeit with a personal, private imperative, rather than merely a legally-imposed one.

It's love, that's what it is.

Unrequited love.

[redgunamo]

It's love, that's what it is.

Unrequited love.

Well, quite. We can't expect the likes of B and Sir C to credit that, can we.

Love is a practical, physical mechanism and also its own magical reward. But, so far as the club is concerned, it's all about bums on seats

[World's End Stella]

Well, quite. We can't expect the likes of B and Sir C to credit that, can we.

Love is a practical, physical mechanism and also its own magical reward. But, so far as the club is concerned, it's all about bums on seats

Quite. So while it's sensible for the club to consider bums in seats as a priority, it's also perfectly reasonable and sensible for a supporter to return each year because of this love, while at the same time having every right to point out what he dislikes about his love. The idea that he should just shut up or leave and support another club is as puerile as it is naive.

[redgunamo]

Now if you argued that the mere act of going to the football - that physical act of belonging - is actually what they're paying for, then you'd have a better case. However, if you accept that, then there is no way of defining what 'value for money' means in that context and thus no grounds for customer complaint as long as the club keeps letting them in.

No, it's more like me complaining about my daughter's American Express bill; the bitterness and resentment felt is in no way intended to imply a refusal, of any kind, to settle up on time and in full and forever. As Williams suggests (rather knowingly, I thought, for him. He must be having one of his days), it is at most just talk as one is, fundamentally, committed and wouldn't actually have it any other way in any case.

One may only take your view if one isn't, or doesn't feel, duty-bound or responsible. It's about what you believe in; I kept my season tickets even though I haven't regularly attended in over twenty years and anyway was never going to be the sort of middle-aged dad to go to the football. No, it's because I believed my (inevitable) sons should go.

It's as Kevin Keegan told us, years ago; at the end of the day, London trendies often have better things to do with their money than go to the football. Fair enough, everyone must make that choice for themselves. But to banter off those who do pledge to do so, while putting on dog about how great Wenger or Özil are the while, and at the same time refusing to actually contribute to their wages is rather inseemly, in my view.