:clap: The Boy Owen got there first.

[Monty92]

But billions of people worldwide don't agree, m.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I believe that our system is the best and most beneficent that mankind has ever come up with. However, all I'm trying to get across is that it is as much based in our faith in a set of ideas and beliefs as is the Islamic model.

So you and I can point to all the achievements of western liberal civilisation until we're blue in the face as evidence of our superiority, but there are many who look at our society and find it corrupt, decadent and disgusting and would prefer one that fits their belief system. They believe the world is better when women know their place, when people don't drink and when homosexuals and adulterous wives are killed.

I know all that. But my point is that it is only our position that is backed up by science. The only reason to dispute this is if you don't believe in science. Which is fine. But I know you do.

[Peter]

I know all that. But my point is that it is only our position that is backed up by science. The only reason to dispute this is if you don't believe in science. Which is fine. But I know you do.

What scientific evidence proves that the world is a better place if people are allowed to drink?

The key word there is better. It clearly indicates a value judgement, at which point the true scientist retreats to his lab and leaves you to it.

[Monty92]

What scientific evidence proves that the world is a better place if people are allowed to drink?

The key word there is better. It clearly indicates a value judgement, at which point the true scientist retreats to his lab and leaves you to it.

Erm, you have't made the mistake of thinking I'm talking only about medical science, do you? The ideas I'm talking about span the entire scientific spectrum.

[Peter]

Erm, you have't made the mistake of thinking I'm talking only about medical science, do you? The ideas I'm talking about span the entire scientific spectrum.

I never mentioned medicine. My question is how scientific study can ever embrace the notion of a societal 'better'..... better in what sense/whose opinion/to what end?

[Monty92]

I never mentioned medicine. My question is how scientific study can ever embrace the notion of a societal 'better'..... better in what sense/whose opinion/to what end?

Sorry, let me just be sure I know exactly what's actually happening here. You are disputing the idea that drinking can be, and often is, beneficial to individuals and groups, and that these benefits can be scientifically measured?

My word. Ok, carry on?

[Peter]

Sorry, let me just be sure I know exactly what's actually happening here. You are disputing the idea that drinking can be, and often is, beneficial to individuals and groups, and that these benefits can be scientifically measured?

My word. Ok, carry on?

No. I am saying that the notion that those benefits necessarily make the world better is a value judgement that any scientists would run away from. And god almighty, do you really need me to run you through some of the catastrophic side effects of drinking? From alcoholism, domestic violence and the social cost of binge drinking in every town centre every weekend to the sheer cost of policing, the number of date rapes linked to alcohol etc etc etc.....

Spend a Friday night in Newcastle and give me a ring at 3 in the morning. Lets see whether your hypothesis is still so unshakeable....

[redgunamo]

No. I am saying that the notion that those benefits necessarily make the world better is a value judgement that any scientists would run away from. And god almighty, do you really need me to run you through some of the catastrophic side effects of drinking? From alcoholism, domestic violence and the social cost of binge drinking in every town centre every weekend to the sheer cost of policing, the number of date rapes linked to alcohol etc etc etc.....

Spend a Friday night in Newcastle and give me a ring at 3 in the morning. Lets see whether your hypothesis is still so unshakeable....

It's not catastrophic. Drinking is an overall benefit. All the people you're talking about there are gainfully employed, paying taxes and so on. After all, boozing isn't free, and neither is policing and social working and whatnot.

[Burney]

I know all that. But my point is that it is only our position that is backed up by science. The only reason to dispute this is if you don't believe in science. Which is fine. But I know you do.

No. There is no scientific basis to not enslaving black people or sending 6 year-olds down mines or up chimneys. Indeed, there were excellent livings to be made at it as I understand. They are things we chose to stop doing based on a set of ideas. Science had fùck all to do with it.

You are getting the fact that we have derived what we perceive to be happy outcomes (for us) from no longer doing these things mixed up with some sort of scientific proof of our cultural superiority, which is nonsense. The Romans used to enslave and kill millions and indulge in games that involved torture and bloodshed. Was the fact that they dominated the ancient world and were vastly technologically superior to their contemporaries therefore validate the extremely fùcked up nature of their society?

[World's End Stella]

No. There is no scientific basis to not enslaving black people or sending 6 year-olds down mines or up chimneys. Indeed, there were excellent livings to be made at it as I understand. They are things we chose to stop doing based on a set of ideas. Science had fùck all to do with it.

You are getting the fact that we have derived what we perceive to be happy outcomes (for us) from no longer doing these things mixed up with some sort of scientific proof of our superiority, which is nonsense. The Romans used to enslave and kill millions and indulge in games that involved torture and bloodshed. Was the fact that they dominated the ancient world and were vastly technologically superior to their contemporaries therefore validate the extremely fùcked up nature of their society?

I'm pretty sure you could come up with a scientific basis for outlawing slavery and sending 6 year olds down the mines. Or at least I wouldn't write off the possibility.

I would imagine you would attempt to measure an individual's contribution to society with respect to the number of hours worked over the course of their lifetime, the contribution that they might make if given equal opportunities in society etc etc. You could then measure the life expectancy of the average person with and without slavery and child labour and a use a fairly basic probability theorem to determine the contributions the slaves and children would have made. This would be offset against the advantages of cheaper labour amongst other things.

No idea what the conclusion would be but I'm sure this could be measured scientifically.

[redgunamo]

I'm pretty sure you could come up with a scientific basis for outlawing slavery and sending 6 year olds down the mines. Or at least I wouldn't write off the possibility.

I would imagine you would attempt to measure an individual's contribution to society with respect to the number of hours worked over the course of their lifetime, the contribution that they might make if given equal opportunities in society etc etc. You could then measure the life expectancy of the average person with and without slavery and child labour and a use a fairly basic probability theorem to determine the contributions the slaves and children would have made. This would be offset against the advantages of cheaper labour amongst other things.

No idea what the conclusion would be but I'm sure this could be measured scientifically.

Such number-crunching isn't science though surely? The results and conclusions always depend upon who is paying for them.