So there seems to be some debate about how much we should pay as part of Brexit

[Peter]

If that's what they want, then have at it. EU member states have as much to lose by such an outcome as we do. To push for such an outcome would be to put the ideological purity of the EU project ahead of the interests of its member states and I wonder how forgiving the people of those member states would be of such as stance once the results started to bite.

But the EU Project, by definition, cares little for the notion of 'member states'. States are merely local agents, subordinate to the union and its interests. This is the real reason you wanted out.

[Burney]

But the EU Project, by definition, cares little for the notion of 'member states'. States are merely local agents, subordinate to the union and its interests. This is the real reason you wanted out.

Of course. However, it has only succeeded as far as it has by obscuring that fact as much as possible and by being able to point to material benefits for the citizens in return for losing their rights of self-determination. For the citizens of the EU to see the ideology play out red in tooth and claw in a way that hurts them might be a somewhat different proposition imo.

[Peter]

Of course. However, it has only succeeded as far as it has by obscuring that fact as much as possible and by being able to point to material benefits for the citizens in return for losing their rights of self-determination. For the citizens of the EU to see the ideology play out red in tooth and claw in a way that hurts them might be a somewhat different proposition imo.

They are only really losing the right to come here, and they are losing that because of us, not the EU. No problem spinning that, I could do it in my lunch break.

And the only countries where citizens are bothered about that are those that will be receiving a fortune from the EU to invest in infrastructure etc. No problem there either.

The real problem is the example. We are leaving because our voters decided that they want to. That is dangerous so yes, they will make it difficult and will be pointing out how ****ed we are because of it for years.

I did find that speech funny the other day. The chap lists all the the wonderful things we are going to miss out on and manages to completely misunderstand the fact that those 'wonderful things' are in fact our biggest fears. Even I would probably leave in the face of them.

They just dont get us, b. They never did.

[Burney]

They just dont get us, b. They never did.

Ultimately, this is the problem. We never understood what the European project was about because we don't have the same hang-ups about WWII (albeit we have a completely different set of hang-ups about it). In fairness to him, De Gaulle knew this and knew we could simply never get on board with the whole bloody nonsense.

The problem is that, as a nation, we were sold a pup by our own politicians. We rather liked the idea of a Common Market and, by the time we realised there was a bit more to it than that, we were (seemingly) in too deep to get out. However, ever since we realised what we'd got ourselves into (around the time of Maastricht, basically), opposition to the EU has grown and grown, culminating in the referendum. That's no coincidence. As a people we loathe the idea of being subsumed by a European superstate in no small part because we don't really consider ourselves European.

I mean, one could argue that the only good reason for us to stay in the EU was to prevent it becoming a single unified superstate, but I think the idea that that was what we were doing presupposes rather too much foresight and cynicism on the part of our leaders over the last 40 years. I think we bumbled into the bloody thing and now we're bumbling our way out.

[Peter]

Ultimately, this is the problem. We never understood what the European project was about because we don't have the same hang-ups about WWII (albeit we have a completely different set of hang-ups about it). In fairness to him, De Gaulle knew this and knew we could simply never get on board with the whole bloody nonsense.

The problem is that, as a nation, we were sold a pup by our own politicians. We rather liked the idea of a Common Market and, by the time we realised there was a bit more to it than that, we were (seemingly) in too deep to get out. However, ever since we realised what we'd got ourselves into (around the time of Maastricht, basically), opposition to the EU has grown and grown, culminating in the referendum. That's no coincidence. As a people we loathe the idea of being subsumed by a European superstate in no small part because we don't really consider ourselves European.

I mean, one could argue that the only good reason for us to stay in the EU was to prevent it becoming a single unified superstate, but I think the idea that that was what we were doing presupposes rather too much foresight and cynicism on the part of our leaders over the last 40 years. I think we bumbled into the bloody thing and now we're bumbling our way out.

Pretty much sums it up. Its in historical perspective that we differ so hugely from the mainland. Our biggest triumphs and greatest strengths have always involved ridding ourselves of our responsibilities in europe and making hay with the rest of the world. Our biggest challenges have all come from europe, be they the Pope, the Armada, Napolean, the Kaiser or Adolf. We thought the EEC would be a nice little talking shop that would keep peace between FRance and Germany.

All of this is true but of course none of it is the point. The idea of the nation state was a short lived ideal that led to nothing but trouble. Governments don't wield economic power now, that sits with the multinational entities that run a global economy. I am not saying that supra national bodies like the EU are of any real use in tackling this but I am saying that we are thoroughly deluded if we think that leaving the EU is going to make any real difference. It will give us a sense of independence that, for whatever reason, we need to feel happy with ourselves. And it will enable us, in theory, to manage the process of EU citizens coming here.

That will be enough for most people.

[World's End Stella]

I am saying that we are thoroughly deluded if we think that leaving the EU is going to make any real difference. It will give us a sense of independence that, for whatever reason, we need to feel happy with ourselves. And it will enable us, in theory, to manage the process of EU citizens coming here.

Yes, leaving the EU is just fluff really. It keeps a certain cross section of the public happy despite the fact that the real impact on anyone's life will be minimal unless everyone does something really stupid.

Put it this way, had the UK never joined, how different do you think the UK would be now compared to what it really is?

Not a jot imo.

[Peter]

Yes, leaving the EU is just fluff really. It keeps a certain cross section of the public happy despite the fact that the real impact on anyone's life will be minimal unless everyone does something really stupid.

Put it this way, had the UK never joined, how different do you think the UK would be now compared to what it really is?

Not a jot imo.

It will change a little bit and I would imagine we will be worse off in the short term. In the long term, I dont think anyone really knows. That will depend on how we adjust to our new freedom.

[Burney]

It will give us a sense of independence that, for whatever reason, we need to feel happy with ourselves.

This is actually a tremendously important thing. You underplay it, but it is.

[Peter]

This is actually a tremendously important thing. You underplay it, but it is.

As an outdated concept and a vague feeling yes, incredibly important. In a practical sense it obviously means nothing whatsoever but if it makes people feel happy then I am all for it.

What really matters is what they then choose to be unhappy about instead.