I find myself in the odd position this morning of supporting the Allans.

[Burney]

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Presumably you also object to teaching kids about contraception?

No. You can teach children about contraception without telling them it is a good thing or how they should feel about it. The problem here is that the agenda - while perhaps well-meaning - has no place in the classroom. It is the attempt to indoctrinate that I find wholly repulsive because there is nothing to prevent the state from doing the same with other - less benign - beliefs.

For instance, I take it you would object - as do I - to much of the pro-Islam teaching of comparative religion that is going on in our schools. In doing so, you would be standing on the same principle as these Allan parents - that the wish of the state to encourage a given mode of thought should not be allowed to go unchecked regardless of the parents' wishes.

Ultimately, I do not believe it is the place of the state to dictate to children what their beliefs should be.

[IUFG]

No. You can teach children about contraception without telling them it is a good thing or how they should feel about it. The problem here is that the agenda - while perhaps well-meaning - has no place in the classroom. It is the attempt to indoctrinate that I find wholly repulsive because there is nothing to prevent the state from doing the same with other - less benign - beliefs.

For instance, I take it you would object - as do I - to much of the pro-Islam teaching of comparative religion that is going on in our schools. In doing so, you would be standing on the same principle as these Allan parents - that the wish of the state to encourage a given mode of thought should not be allowed to go unchecked regardless of the parents' wishes.

Ultimately, I do not believe it is the place of the state to dictate to children what their beliefs should be.

Do the Allan schools teach their pupils about christianity, judaism, etc and the right to be atheist or agnostic?

Also, with regards sex education - do schools teach the ins and outs, so to speak, of heemasexual practices?

[Burney]

Do the Allan schools teach their pupils about christianity, judaism, etc and the right to be atheist or agnostic?

Also, with regards sex education - do schools teach the ins and outs, so to speak, of heemasexual practices?

Of course not. Apostasy is punishable by death in Sharia.

As for the heemasexual practices, I don't know and I'm unsure what the value of such lessons would be. For millennia, our puddle-jumping pals have not been taught anything about how to have sex and yet they've managed to figure it out all on their own - presumably through trial and error.

[IUFG]

Of course not. Apostasy is punishable by death in Sharia.

As for the heemasexual practices, I don't know and I'm unsure what the value of such lessons would be. For millennia, our puddle-jumping pals have not been taught anything about how to have sex and yet they've managed to figure it out all on their own - presumably through trial and error.

and with heterosexual practices too, I would have thought...

another Monty Python opportunity...

[Burney]

and with heterosexual practices too, I would have thought...

another Monty Python opportunity...

Well I suppose with heterosexual sex education, there is the business of explaining conception and how it works. There are plenty of examples of people who had no such education getting it horribly wrong for years and wondering why no children were pitching up.

With gayness, on the other hand, there's less that can go wrong, I suppose. There are no rights and wrongs in terms of the actual mechanics.

[Monty92]

A

Well I suppose with heterosexual sex education, there is the business of explaining conception and how it works. There are plenty of examples of people who had no such education getting it horribly wrong for years and wondering why no children were pitching up.

With gayness, on the other hand, there's less that can go wrong, I suppose. There are no rights and wrongs in terms of the actual mechanics.

One thing that could go very wrong is if you're gay but are taught at home that being gay is sinful. Some might even call this child abuse.

Call me weird, but I'm pretty chilled about schools making some efforts to correct for this.

Anyway, what has Owen Jones had to say about all this? Presumably he's come out all guns blazing and condemned the homophobic protester parents?

[Burney]

A

One thing that could go very wrong is if you're gay but are taught at home that being gay is sinful. Some might even call this child abuse.

Call me weird, but I'm pretty chilled about schools making some efforts to correct for this.

Anyway, what has Owen Jones had to say about all this? Presumably he's come out all guns blazing and condemned the homophobic protester parents?

Child abuse? Deary, deary me, m. Don't talk such utter rot. Children have been being raised with the notion that their sexualities are sinful and shameful for millennia. It's not child abuse, it's a societal function of the dominance of Abrahamic religions (which has also had numerous upsides, btw).

And schools aren't talking about correcting it, they're essentially trying to convince children that heterosexuality is not the default setting for mankind and that homosexuality isn't aberrant.
Those things a/ simply aren't true and b/ are not positions that it is the business of schools to be proselytising to small children.

Oh, and Owen has actually attacked the MP who defended the muslim parents. He didn't risk actually attacking the Allans.

[Ash]

and with heterosexual practices too, I would have thought...

another Monty Python opportunity...

"What's wrong with a simple kiss, boy? You don't have to go stampeding for the clitoris!"

[Monty92]

No. You can teach children about contraception without telling them it is a good thing or how they should feel about it. The problem here is that the agenda - while perhaps well-meaning - has no place in the classroom. It is the attempt to indoctrinate that I find wholly repulsive because there is nothing to prevent the state from doing the same with other - less benign - beliefs.

For instance, I take it you would object - as do I - to much of the pro-Islam teaching of comparative religion that is going on in our schools. In doing so, you would be standing on the same principle as these Allan parents - that the wish of the state to encourage a given mode of thought should not be allowed to go unchecked regardless of the parents' wishes.

Ultimately, I do not believe it is the place of the state to dictate to children what their beliefs should be.

Are you sure you know enough about what this Brummie school has been teaching to describe it as "indoctrination"?

I'm really not sure lessons about contraception come with any less of a value judgement. Even if these lessons focus on the utilitarian benefits of contraception, rather than the perceived moral ones, this would still be abhorrent to someone who considers contraception to be morally wrong.

Yet presumably you'd have no truck with such a person, which seems wholly inconsistent to me.

[Burney]

Are you sure you know enough about what this Brummie school has been teaching to describe it as "indoctrination"?

I'm really not sure lessons about contraception come with any less of a value judgement. Even if these lessons focus on the utilitarian benefits of contraception, rather than the moral ones, this would still be abhorrent to someone who considers contraception to be morally wrong. Yet presumably you'd have no truck with such a person, which seems inconsistent to me?

Yes, because its mere existence is indoctrination. It is a programme called 'No Outsiders' that 'interrogates and challenges heteronormativity in primary schools' (consider the sinister nature of that for one moment). It is specifically designed to teach that there is nothing abnormal about alternative sexual or gender categories. Now that is by definition untrue, since those things are patently abnormal - something it is perfectly possible to agree with without implying anything pejorative. So what you have there is an attempt to teach a lie to children. I think I'd call that indoctrination.

And, as a Catholic, I can tell you that it is perfectly possible to teach the utilitarian benefits of contraception while accepting that for some those benefits are outweighed by the doctrinal prohibition of the practice.