So there seems to be some debate about how much we should pay as part of Brexit

[Peter]

This is how upside-down leftism has become. The pwopah old-school internationalism was based on solidarity among workers, and an understanding that nationalism was a capitalist tool to get workers to side with their respective national bourgeoisie. "Workers of the world unite!" as the man said.

On the contrary, the globalism of the EU benefits the capitalist class (ease of movement for their capital) and their middle-class hangers-on (don't you just love these cheap builders, baristas and au-pairs, darling) while forcing elements of the working class to chase around the continent for jobs.

Supra-nationalism not the new default position. It doesn't exist outside of the EU other than in empires, and national self-determination is currently the best geopolitical unit of democracy available.

I have nothing against the nation state, aside from the fact that it pulled Europe to pieces for a century. The fact remains that the idea existed at a time when it was possible to identify a nation's economy and its immediate issues. Those are now less obvious.

The modern nation state is a political unit that doesn't reflect how the world works and how the global economy runs. This is not necessarily a problem unless you want your government to run its economy. As I said, I am not suggesting that supra-national bodies are any better- what they may offer in terms of broader boundaries they lose in a lack of accountability and conflicting priority from constituent members.

However, we are really talking about how people feel. Our view of our own independence is a little old fashioned and harks back to an age when a government did control our economy (and the economies of half the developing world). I am not sure the same advantages exist now. We shall see.

The point being, independence is not what it was. I dont necessarily view the nation state as a cause worth fighting for but am happy to live in it if it makes people better off. If it doesn't, it was not a price worth paying.

[Burney]

I have nothing against the nation state, aside from the fact that it pulled Europe to pieces for a century. The fact remains that the idea existed at a time when it was possible to identify a nation's economy and its immediate issues. Those are now less obvious.

The modern nation state is a political unit that doesn't reflect how the world works and how the global economy runs. This is not necessarily a problem unless you want your government to run its economy. As I said, I am not suggesting that supra-national bodies are any better- what they may offer in terms of broader boundaries they lose in a lack of accountability and conflicting priority from constituent members.

However, we are really talking about how people feel. Our view of our own independence is a little old fashioned and harks back to an age when a government did control our economy (and the economies of half the developing world). I am not sure the same advantages exist now. We shall see.

The point being, independence is not what it was. I dont necessarily view the nation state as a cause worth fighting for but am happy to live in it if it makes people better off. If it doesn't, it was not a price worth paying.

Only one nation state pulled Europe apart over the last century, p. Europe was at relative piece for 50 years right up until the Unification of Germany. A Europe with an over-mighty Germany in it cannot be safe.

[Peter]

Only one nation state pulled Europe apart over the last century, p. Europe was at relative piece for 50 years right up until the Unification of Germany. A Europe with an over-mighty Germany in it cannot be safe.

A Europe with an artificially un-mighty Germany in it was even less safe. The story from unification to surrender in 1945 was one of Germany finding its rightful place as a major european power and economy.

Italian nationalism was pretty destabilising, as were the artificial nation states imposed at Versailles that created such easy prey for Hitler.

the problem is that we never wanted this to be our problem. We only ever got dragged in to sort it out and, from day to day, wanted nothing to do with them. We still dont.

Arguably the right thing to do was never join. Or at the very least, to leave before Maastricht.

[Burney]

A Europe with an artificially un-mighty Germany in it was even less safe. The story from unification to surrender in 1945 was one of Germany finding its rightful place as a major european power and economy.

Italian nationalism was pretty destabilising, as were the artificial nation states imposed at Versailles that created such easy prey for Hitler.

the problem is that we never wanted this to be our problem. We only ever got dragged in to sort it out and, from day to day, wanted nothing to do with them. We still dont.

Arguably the right thing to do was never join. Or at the very least, to leave before Maastricht.

Oddly enough, Europe's never been more peaceful than when Germany was divided. No sooner does Germany reunify than Yugoslavia kicks off in no small part because that fat-headed cünt Helmut Kohl - in a moment of post-unification hubris - unilaterally decided to recognise Croatia and Slovenia.

The Cold War - for all its faults - kept everything nice and stable.

And yes, we'd love to leave well enough alone, but long experience tells us that if we don't at least keep a watching eye on our European cousins, sooner or later they'll come after us and have to be slapped.

[Peter]

Oddly enough, Europe's never been more peaceful than when Germany was divided. No sooner does Germany reunify than Yugoslavia kicks off in no small part because that fat-headed cünt Helmut Kohl - in a moment of post-unification hubris - unilaterally decided to recognise Croatia and Slovenia.

The Cold War - for all its faults - kept everything nice and stable.

And yes, we'd love to leave well enough alone, but long experience tells us that if we don't at least keep a watching eye on our European cousins, sooner or later they'll come after us and have to be slapped.

Nah, that's all over and done with. Its all about the islamists these days, b. THe Gerries are yesterday's news.

[Burney]

Nah, that's all over and done with. Its all about the islamists these days, b. THe Gerries are yesterday's news.

Yes, because there's no precedent for a Germany that feels it faces a cultural and ethnic threat getting uppity, is there?

[Peter]

Yes, because there's no precedent for a Germany that feels it faces a cultural and ethnic threat getting uppity, is there?

Yeah, but they wont be getting uppity with us, will they. If they want to take on the mad Muslimists you would be right behind them wouldn't you?

Anyway, they wont do it.

[redgunamo]

Yes, because there's no precedent for a Germany that feels it faces a cultural and ethnic threat getting uppity, is there?

Right. This morning, the wife fed my special steak and kidney pie filling to my hounds while I wasn't looking. Lying cow says she presumed it was meant for them on account of the smell.