I note that the police are boasting of having made two 'significant arrests' in the

[Rich]

case of our late Allan friend.

For a 'lone wolf' he does seem to have been remarkably gregarious, doesn't he?

Well obviously his close family and probably some of his religious leaders will have chosen to turn a blind eye. Have we heard the leader of his mosque condemn his actions, hmmm? The silence is deafening.

Absolutely vile people.

[World's End Stella]

Well obviously his close family and probably some of his religious leaders will have chosen to turn a blind eye. Have we heard the leader of his mosque condemn his actions, hmmm? The silence is deafening.

Absolutely vile people.

Actually, the Muslim community *leaders* seem to have been far more vocal and less defensive than they have in the past.

Although I'd still like to see a few dozen imams publicly stating that this act was contrary to Islam and using quotes from the Koran as a justification.

[Rich]

Actually, the Muslim community *leaders* seem to have been far more vocal and less defensive than they have in the past.

Although I'd still like to see a few dozen imams publicly stating that this act was contrary to Islam and using quotes from the Koran as a justification.

Absolutely. Or the Imam from his own Mosque (does each won have an Imam?) - at least he could come out and defend his mosque's reputation. Even if it's a lie, at least condemn it.

I just can't believe how they get away with it. I find it utterly repulsive.

[Burney]

Actually, the Muslim community *leaders* seem to have been far more vocal and less defensive than they have in the past.

Although I'd still like to see a few dozen imams publicly stating that this act was contrary to Islam and using quotes from the Koran as a justification.

You realise, of course, that it would be just as easy - easier in fact - to find quotes from the Quran that justify it?

[dismalswamp]

You realise, of course, that it would be just as easy - easier in fact - to find quotes from the Quran that justify it?

Very true i'm afraid, a simple discussion with my parents who claimed 'Well it doesn't say kill people in there does it?'
I'm afraid yes it does, all Kafirs are fair game. This religion of peace bolox has to stop being spouted. Why don't people actually know the facts?

[Burney]

Very true i'm afraid, a simple discussion with my parents who claimed 'Well it doesn't say kill people in there does it?'
I'm afraid yes it does, all Kafirs are fair game. This religion of peace bolox has to stop being spouted. Why don't people actually know the facts?

Well because, like most religious texts, it's wildly inconsistent, ambiguous and contradictory, allowing for a broad range of interpretations.
That's the thing about God. He really struggles to make himself clear.

[World's End Stella]

You realise, of course, that it would be just as easy - easier in fact - to find quotes from the Quran that justify it?

Yes, of course. But like all religions, Islam has bits we don't like in a modern, democratic, secular society and bits we do. The nutters do a pretty good job of highlighting the bits we don't so it strikes me as a pretty good idea that the more peaceful, modern members of our Muslim communities, who are in the overwhelming majority in this country, begin to emphasize the bits we do. Not doing so allows an unbalanced view of Islam to be consistently available in the media.

If there is a valid criticism of our Muslim communities it is how little of this they actually do. I expect partly because they feel they shouldn't have to and partly because of an ever present culture of victimization within their communities. But they need to man up and get over that, this is no time for being precious.

[Burney]

Yes, of course. But like all religions, Islam has bits we don't like in a modern, democratic, secular society and bits we do. The nutters do a pretty good job of highlighting the bits we don't so it strikes me as a pretty good idea that the more peaceful, modern members of our Muslim communities, who are in the overwhelming majority in this country, begin to emphasize the bits we do. Not doing so allows an unbalanced view of Islam to be consistently available in the media.

If there is a valid criticism of our Muslim communities it is how little of this they actually do. I expect partly because they feel they shouldn't have to and partly because of an ever present culture of victimization within their communities. But they need to man up and get over that, this is no time for being precious.

The problem they have is that any scrutiny of what the Quran actually says is going to be problematic for 'peaceful, modern muslims', since rather a lot of it isn't peaceful or modern.
One of the mistakes we make about Islam is thinking that the Quran is directly equivalent to the New Testament and thus all about the peace, love and understanding with just a couple of iffy bits. It really, really isn't. It's highly problematic in a lot of areas, which is why people prefer to gloss over it with the whole 'It's the religion of peace' nonsense and move on before anyone asks any tricky questions.
The fact is that on issues such as the place of women in society, attitudes towards non-muslims, blasphemy, apostasy, homosexuality and others, the Quran is actually pretty horrific.

[World's End Stella]

The problem they have is that any scrutiny of what the Quran actually says is going to be problematic for 'peaceful, modern muslims', since rather a lot of it isn't peaceful or modern.
One of the mistakes we make about Islam is thinking that the Quran is directly equivalent to the New Testament and thus all about the peace, love and understanding with just a couple of iffy bits. It really, really isn't. It's highly problematic in a lot of areas, which is why people prefer to gloss over it with the whole 'It's the religion of peace' nonsense and move on before anyone asks any tricky questions.
The fact is that on issues such as the place of women in society, attitudes towards non-muslims, blasphemy, apostasy, homosexuality and others, the Quran is actually pretty horrific.

True, yet the overwhelming majority of Muslims still lead their lives and consider themselves good Muslims while ignoring the parts to which you refer, so that gives us hope. An Islamic reformation is too much to ask for in our lifetime, Burney, but the very least we can expect is for the Muslim community leaders, imams etc to emphasize the parts of Islam which are consistent with modern life in Britain and to the extent that it is possible, ostracise the 70 year old men who grew up in the nether regions of Pakistan (as an example) and have far too much sympathy for the nutters.

More women and young people being active leaders within their communities is the key, I think. Less chaps in robes and silly hats with stupid beards.

[Burney]

True, yet the overwhelming majority of Muslims still lead their lives and consider themselves good Muslims while ignoring the parts to which you refer, so that gives us hope. An Islamic reformation is too much to ask for in our lifetime, Burney, but the very least we can expect is for the Muslim community leaders, imams etc to emphasize the parts of Islam which are consistent with modern life in Britain and to the extent that it is possible, ostracise the 70 year old men who grew up in the nether regions of Pakistan (as an example) and have far too much sympathy for the nutters.

More women and young people being active leaders within their communities is the key, I think. Less chaps in robes and silly hats with stupid beards.

That rather ignores the fact that a lot of the older generation of muslims who came here back in the 60s were rather more integration-minded than younger generations, many of whom have embraced a more fundamentalist outlook. Progress is far from linear or certain in that respect.

A lot of the problem lies in our idea that we can separate out culture from religion and treat them as two separate things. I really don't believe it's that simple. Religion - particularly a religion like Islam - shapes culture and it becomes well-nigh impossible to address a lot of these problems without addressing that fact.