I am halfway through watching the excellent Ken Burns documentary on the US Civil War

[Burney]

They didn't have to win militarily. They just had to cause the north to get bogged down indefinitely, persuading the northerners of the folly of pursuing their ends. Kind of a Vietnam-type deal, Tet Offensive.

I personally like William Tecumseh Sherman. Scorched earth, faggits.

Yes. The man who promised to 'Make Georgia howl' and very much did. Of course, his march to the sea was by any modern definition you care to name a massive war crime, but highly effective nonetheless.

[Ash]

Yes. In fact, there's also a strong argument that slavery retarded technological, economic and industrial development, since it meant that, rather than develop more efficient technology, they could just chuck manpower at the problem.

The same can be said for any economy dependent on low labour costs. One of the reasons this country has flat-lined on productivity is that there is no incentive to develop more efficient capital when there is an inexhaustible supply of cheap, imported labour.

[Sir C]

We are up to the middle of 1863 and the Confederacy are winning

I think I am going to have to stop watching it here as it is about to get quite sad.....

I've never been able to bring myself to have any interest in this grubby little conflict, fought between the child-like inhabitants of such a pointless shíthole. I mean really, who cares?

[SWv2]

There is much to suggest that had Stonewall Jackson not been killed in a freak accident the month before then the South would have stood a far better chance at Gettysburg. THe hill they were five minutes too slow in taking because Lee's orders were misunderstood; had they taken the hill then the fateful charge the following day wouldn't have happened.

I stopped at the part where Shelby Foote says that every Southern boy is able to put himself in that field at 1pm, just before the charge and drink in the last moment where victory was still possible.....I had to turn it off and weep like a baby..

That said, the situation at Vicksburg was dire and even victory at Gettysburg wasnt enough. He needed to draw Grant and his resources northwards to ensure that Vicksburg held and Gettysburg came too late- Vicksburg surrendered the following day.

Sounds shíte to be fair.

I can recommend Thor Ragnorak at the cinema.

[Peter]

Yes. In fact, there's also a strong argument that slavery retarded technological, economic and industrial development, since it meant that, rather than develop more efficient technology, they could just chuck manpower at the problem.

A fact that seems obvious to us now but wouldn't have to them. Its the root cause of the civil war in the sense that slavery permitted the two parts of the country to grow so far apart economically over a century that so many areas of policy would divide them.

I read a rather hilarious piece about changing the name of a school from washington-Lee to just Washington. THe argument seemed to be that although Washington had owned slaves he had fought a war that wasnt treason and forged a democracy. Lee had fought a war of treason and had owned slaves.

Kind of stepped over the fact that the revolutionary war WAS an act of treason, and that the difference between revolution and treason is victory. He also forged a democracy that allowed slavery. Funnier still, almost all the slaves that Lee owned were acquired through marriage to.....Martha Washington's great grand daughter. He inherited the descendants of the same slaves Washington had owned....

But yeah, the first one is a hero and the second a slave-owning racist....

[Peter]

Sounds shíte to be fair.

I can recommend Thor Ragnorak at the cinema.

Thank you. I wont be partaking.

[Peter]

I've never been able to bring myself to have any interest in this grubby little conflict, fought between the child-like inhabitants of such a pointless shíthole. I mean really, who cares?

You have never been seduced by the charms of old Dixy?

The romance, the music, the whisky....terrible racism of course, but you cant have everything....

[Sir C]

You have never been seduced by the charms of old Dixy?

The romance, the music, the whisky....terrible racism of course, but you cant have everything....

Lynyrd Skynyrd, Elvis' American Trilogy, Johnny Cash, the Zac Brown Band? Certainly, these are charming consequences of whatever local unpleasantness the Land Of The (Un)Free put itself through. The details of this conflict seem to me, though, immaterial in all respects.

[Peter]

Lynyrd Skynyrd, Elvis' American Trilogy, Johnny Cash, the Zac Brown Band? Certainly, these are charming consequences of whatever local unpleasantness the Land Of The (Un)Free put itself through. The details of this conflict seem to me, though, immaterial in all respects.

Ah, I know why. Its because there are no planes involved. You only like war in the skies, don't you.

[Sir C]

Ah, I know why. Its because there are no planes involved. You only like war in the skies, don't you.

Lord no. What about Agincourt? Waterloo? Proper battles, between proper armies, about proper issues. Not grubby little untrained oiks firing pop guns at each other and missing. Rubbish.