So it seems our chums in the ever-democratic EU are threatening to suspend Poland's

[World's End Stella]

I'm not even sure why that's relevant. Do you allow young people to make decisions for you affecting your future.

The whole point of being a grown-up is that you make those decisions on behalf of, and for the benefit of, the young, our children. And that you, as the grown-up, are responsible.

What you're doing there is shirking your responsibility as an adult.

Sorry red, I've read that three times and still have no idea why you posted it or what it means. I'll assume you're having an insanity moment.

[redgunamo]

Given the context of my remarks, it should be abundantly clear that I was referring to those areas of life in which membership of the EU has had an influence. You were the one who artificially conflated that with a range of irrelevant sociological factors that are common to every developed country.

I think you had it right the first time; Brexit wasn't about facts, it was more about feelings and grabbing a rare opportunity to express the feeling that we simply don't like Europeans very much.

Tolerate them, yes. Even enjoy them. But "like"? No. We're not really going to "Leave" though; that was never the intention. At least, of Brexit.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

This is nonsense, I'm afraid, gg. By leaving the EU, we have in fact extricated ourselves from the German hegemony you describe - into which our leaders were happily drawing us further. It is now the case that, in fact, the EU will be surrounded by three military powers - the UK, Russia and Turkey - that are not contained within it and harbour various degrees of hostility towards it. That prospect, i suspect, will keep them in check.

We now need to arm for the coming wars.

1. We haven't extracted ourselves from German hegemony. We had been pooling sovereignty. We got our way in votes 95% of the time, more than both Germany and France. We now have no say in the rules that govern 44% of our exports.

2.The UK and Turkey as military powers? Lol. Bring in France and we can have Crimea 2.0. And we don't want hostile relations with our major trade partner.

3. How are we going to afford to arm? We are predicted to lose 9.5% of our GDP by 2030 because of Brexit. The public - including the idiots who voted fro Brexit - are now saying they want an end to austerity. Yet they voted to see the pound fall by 15-20%, which isn't helpful for a country with a large current account deficit, and for inflation to go well beyond the MPC's 2% remit and for a massive fall in our GDP.

Brexit is going to make us much, much poorer, as everyone knows full well. It disgusts me that there were about a dozen studies looking at how much Brexit will cost us in GDP loss, and all but one said it would be big. The other was was Economists for Brexit - 8 people. So because 8 ideologues came up with taht crap about us being richer, the Beeb were froced to say that there were arguments both ways.

And now all the predictions - as people realise what it entails - are saying it's going to be much worse than we thought a year ago.

By on earth did people vote to make themselves much poorer? The public should never have been entrusted with such a decision. We don't have the space or facilities to have customs checks at the ports for all the containers. Euratom, the fall in all the NHS workers etc. The rural food industry can't get the fruit pickers et al it needs.

I really worry for thsi country. If people are complaining about austerity now, what will they do in a decade when GDP is down 10%? They were moaning about only getting a 1% public sector pay rise. Now we need 3% just to keep real wages on a par.

People are going to realise that they have become a lot, lot poorer and that the reduced growth will devastate the public services they rely on. And what happens when the voters or govt have to decide which groups of people suffer most from the shrinking pie.

One half of the country will know that it's all the fault of the other half.

I can see a dark political future for this country, potentially.

When people see that we've fallen from being as rich as France to as poor as Portugal, and knowing that unlike, say, the Wall St crash that:
1. It's not affecting every nation, just us.
2. That it's not going to go back to how it was, we've got this forever.
3. That it wasn't outsiders - foreign bankers or a hostile power - that's to blame, it's one half of our fellow citizens.

Do you not worry about how voters wil react when it dawns on them what they have either done or had done to them by the other group?

[Burney]

Yes, there is great strength in unification for Grossdeutschland.

Attachment 680

Yes. My worry is where the borders of Grossdeutschland will be. I suspect the Mediterranean in the south, the Arctic Ocean to the north, the Channel to the west and the Polish/Ukrainian border to the east.

[redgunamo]

Sorry red, I've read that three times and still have no idea why you posted it or what it means. I'll assume you're having an insanity moment.

I doubt you ever understand anything you disagree with, do you. Funny that

You're not a snowflake, are you

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

History demonstrates that Europe can never be safe with a united Germany, I'm afraid. Reunification will prove to have been a disaster for Western Europe.

I do concede that even though we can't predict the future solely on the past, our Bosche brethern don't have a great record as a united nation.

[World's End Stella]

I think you had it right the first time; Brexit wasn't about facts, it was more about feelings and grabbing a rare opportunity to express the feeling that we simply don't like Europeans very much.

Tolerate them, yes. Even enjoy them. But "like"? No. We're not really going to "Leave" though; that was never the intention. At least, of Brexit.

There you go, red, spot on all of that. The quantitative analysis said Remain.

And for that reason, we will. The rest is all just packaging.

[Burney]

1. We haven't extracted ourselves from German hegemony. We had been pooling sovereignty. We got our way in votes 95% of the time, more than both Germany and France. We now have no say in the rules that govern 44% of our exports.

2.The UK and Turkey as military powers? Lol. Bring in France and we can have Crimea 2.0. And we don't want hostile relations with our major trade partner.

3. How are we going to afford to arm? We are predicted to lose 9.5% of our GDP by 2030 because of Brexit. The public - including the idiots who voted fro Brexit - are now saying they want an end to austerity. Yet they voted to see the pound fall by 15-20%, which isn't helpful for a country with a large current account deficit, and for inflation to go well beyond the MPC's 2% remit and for a massive fall in our GDP.

Brexit is going to make us much, much poorer, as everyone knows full well. It disgusts me that there were about a dozen studies looking at how much Brexit will cost us in GDP loss, and all but one said it would be big. The other was was Economists for Brexit - 8 people. So because 8 ideologues came up with taht crap about us being richer, the Beeb were froced to say that there were arguments both ways.

And now all the predictions - as people realise what it entails - are saying it's going to be much worse than we thought a year ago.

By on earth did people vote to make themselves much poorer? The public should never have been entrusted with such a decision. We don't have the space or facilities to have customs checks at the ports for all the containers. Euratom, the fall in all the NHS workers etc. The rural food industry can't get the fruit pickers et al it needs.

I really worry for thsi country. If people are complaining about austerity now, what will they do in a decade when GDP is down 10%? They were moaning about only getting a 1% public sector pay rise. Now we need 3% just to keep real wages on a par.

People are going to realise that they have become a lot, lot poorer and that the reduced growth will devastate the public services they rely on. And what happens when the voters or govt have to decide which groups of people suffer most from the shrinking pie.

One half of the country will know that it's all the fault of the other half.

I can see a dark political future for this country, potentially.

When people see that we've fallen from being as rich as France to as poor as Portugal, and knowing that unlike, say, the Wall St crash that:
1. It's not affecting every nation, just us.
2. That it's not going to go back to how it was, we've got this forever.
3. That it wasn't outsiders - foreign bankers or a hostile power - that's to blame, it's one half of our fellow citizens.

Do you not worry about how voters wil react when it dawns on them what they have either done or had done to them by the other group?

Oh, dear. And we were having such a nice chat until now. This is merely the hysterical ranting of a bedwetter, gg.

Oh, by the way, whenever someone says in all seriousness: 'The public should never have been entrusted with such a decision', I reach for my revolver. You either trust the public with decisions about how they are governed or you advocate tyranny. There is no middle ground.

[Peter]

Yes. My worry is where the borders of Grossdeutschland will be. I suspect the Mediterranean in the south, the Arctic Ocean to the north, the Channel to the west and the Polish/Ukrainian border to the east.

And quite right too. German dominance of Europe is an economic inevitability and is therefore to be welcomed. The 'problem' is a century of resistance to it. All that matters is that it is achieved peacefully.

Anyway, none of our business. Our greatest periods of triumph have come from ignoring Europe altogether.

**** the trade deal and send the gunships east of the Med. The real good old days.

Let us meet next in Malacca

[Sir C]

Yes. My worry is where the borders of Grossdeutschland will be. I suspect the Mediterranean in the south, the Arctic Ocean to the north, the Channel to the west and the Polish/Ukrainian border to the east.

One wonders whether we shall be forced into a pact with the Russian devil once more. I suppose if we instituted a naval blockade and Putin switched off their gas they'd be tempted to negotiate...