So I've only paid a small amount of attention to all this Brexit nonsense

[Monty92]

Hmmm, most of that reads as though you agree with what I said but that you think that when it comes down to negotiating what really matters - our future relationship with the EU - that the people involved will bottle it and negotiate a very watered down Brexit.

That's possible - of course - but I would point out that during this set of negotiations the UK has pretty much no leverage whatsoever beyond the threat of no deal (something we routinely tell everyone we want to avoid) as we're the ones asking to leave while at the same time making it clear we want access to the common market. That pretty much puts all the cards in the EU's hands. It's true that by making it clear what we expect with respect to the Irish border that we weakened our position a bit but I doubt it made much difference, they had all the cards they needed anyway.

As I pointed out a few days ago to Monty, what May has been asked to achieve is exceptionally difficult given our lack of leverage. And I doubt very much whether any deal agreed at this point would have been much different.

When we will have leverage is during the future relationship negotiations as at that point the impact of our leaving with no deal will be very clear to the EU countries at the table. I fail to see why we would be pessimistic about our ability to negotiate a deal that benefits those involved at that point.

And failing that, I still fail to see why we should be so afraid of no deal. As I said, much ado about nothing.

"something we routinely tell everyone we want to avoid"

The so-called hard Brexiteers have not done this. The ones that many Brexit voters would prefer were leading the negotiations.

[WES]

"something we routinely tell everyone we want to avoid"

The so-called hard Brexiteers have not done this. The ones that many Brexit voters would prefer were leading the negotiations.

Yes that's true but as has now been pointed out to you twice, at this point it wouldn't have made any difference because the EU holds all the cards anyway and we are not currently negotiating the future relationship, only the logistics of how we will exit. This negotiation actually means very little so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

[Monty92]

Yes that's true but as has now been pointed out to you twice, at this point it wouldn't have made any difference because the EU holds all the cards anyway and we are not currently negotiating the future relationship, only the logistics of how we will exit. This negotiation actually means very little so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

I don't see why it's improbable that a genuine threat of No Deal would not have lent the entire negotiations - including the withdrawal agreement - a different complexion.

[Burney]

I don't see why it's improbable that a genuine threat of No Deal would not have lent the entire negotiations - including the withdrawal agreement - a different complexion.

Well of course it would have done. A negotiation from which you're not prepared to walk away is not a negotiation, it's a document of surrender.

[Monty92]

Well of course it would have done. A negotiation from which you're not prepared to walk away is not a negotiation, it's a document of surrender.

Have you been following the Spectator's to and fro with Downing Street? It does truly seem this deal is as bad as anyone could possibly have imagined.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/1...10s-rebuttals/

[Burney]

Have you been following the Spectator's to and fro with Downing Street? It does truly seem this deal is as bad as anyone could possibly have imagined.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/1...10s-rebuttals/

Unfortunately, yes. It makes a profoundly depressing read. Particularly as we have signed up to things that we didn't need to that are simply an embarrassment.

In my more paranoid moments over the last two years I've imagined the idea was to deliberately create a deal so bad that it made the idea of remaining palatable. I've dismissed these thoughts as absurd - no British PM would dream of doing such a thing.

I'm no longer dismissing the thought. This is a Remain stitch-up.

[Rich]

Unfortunately, yes. It makes a profoundly depressing read. Particularly as we have signed up to things that we didn't need to that are simply an embarrassment.

In my more paranoid moments over the last two years I've imagined the idea was to deliberately create a deal so bad that it made the idea of remaining palatable. I've dismissed these thoughts as absurd - no British PM would dream of doing such a thing.

I'm no longer dismissing the thought. This is a Remain stitch-up.

I'm a leetle bit on the fence about it. However, I suspect May asked for what she wanted and was promptly told to do one by the EU. Unfortunately, leaving with no deal will 100% hurt most of the people that voted for Brexit (though I accept they didn't know what they were voting for at the time).

I think we'll need a final referendum to decide whether we want to accept the deal we do have or remain. I highly doubt we will leave with no deal since it means that everybody loses.

[WES]

I don't see why it's improbable that a genuine threat of No Deal would not have lent the entire negotiations - including the withdrawal agreement - a different complexion.

What do you think we would have gained by doing this? How would the exit deal have been different had we done that and how would that have been likely to impact our future relationship negotiations?