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Thread: And the winner of the Swedish election is......

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  1. #1
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    No. Because of strong public sentiment, a political party grew from virtually nothing to a point whereby it could 'win' the European election; put a Tory PM into a situation where he had to choose between offering a referendum or losing office; and ultimately win that referendum. That is democracy working exactly the way it should - and is even more remarkable for having come about in an electoral system so heavily loaded against single-issue politics as ours.

    It's only a 'mistake' for those technocratic types who wrongly and arrogantly imagine that democratic politics can for any length of time be conducted independently of the wishes of the demos.
    Democratic politics is always conducted independently of the wishes of the electorate- as I said, that is pretty much the purpose of a political party. Elections are fought between two different versions of the same view and all views that sit outside of that are ignored.

    Which is why it is quite amusing to see someone like you get so high and mighty about it the minute it happens to exclude you.

    Look at you and Sir C ****ting your pants about Corbyn. The sheer terror that seizes you the minute the prospect of a genuine left wing government becomes even remotely realistic is tremendous fun.

    Whichever way you cut it, Brexit happened by accident. Cameron's gamble only happened because of a delicate electoral balance which was NOT just about UKIP. Not even mainly about it. It is a strange argument to suggest that an accident after a 40 year wait is democracy in action.

    Once this is done and dusted the political class will be back in total control and wil be ignoring all of us for decades to come. And you won't complain about it.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Democratic politics is always conducted independently of the wishes of the electorate- as I said, that is pretty much the purpose of a political party. Elections are fought between two different versions of the same view and all views that sit outside of that are ignored.

    Which is why it is quite amusing to see someone like you get so high and mighty about it the minute it happens to exclude you.

    Look at you and Sir C ****ting your pants about Corbyn. The sheer terror that seizes you the minute the prospect of a genuine left wing government becomes even remotely realistic is tremendous fun.

    Whichever way you cut it, Brexit happened by accident. Cameron's gamble only happened because of a delicate electoral balance which was NOT just about UKIP. Not even mainly about it. It is a strange argument to suggest that an accident after a 40 year wait is democracy in action.

    Once this is done and dusted the political class will be back in total control and wil be ignoring all of us for decades to come. And you won't complain about it.
    No. You are demonstrably wrong. Democratic politics can happen contrary to the wishes of the demos, but that can only create an unstable status quo. This country's Parliamentary history is littered with examples where ground has been given to public sentiment in order to avoid a more cataclysmic backlash. The mistake in recent years has been to assume that such concessions are no longer necessary because consensus - or at least equilibrium - has been achieved. This thinking led to the 'there is no alternative' mindset of which EU membership has been such a key aspect. This complacency is why Brexit has come as such a nasty shock. It has shown that everything is far from settled and that there are monumental political battles still to be fought. The status quo ante is not coming back.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    No. You are demonstrably wrong. Democratic politics can happen contrary to the wishes of the demos, but that can only create an unstable status quo. This country's Parliamentary history is littered with examples where ground has been given to public sentiment in order to avoid a more cataclysmic backlash. The mistake in recent years has been to assume that such concessions are no longer necessary because consensus - or at least equilibrium - has been achieved. This thinking led to the 'there is no alternative' mindset of which EU membership has been such a key aspect. This complacency is why Brexit has come as such a nasty shock. It has shown that everything is far from settled and that there are monumental political battles still to be fought. The status quo ante is not coming back.
    Wow. Do you really believe that?

    You think this means political realignment across the board; a new and profound democracy for Britain?

    ****ing hell.....

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Wow. Do you really believe that?

    You think this means political realignment across the board; a new and profound democracy for Britain?

    ****ing hell.....
    Certainly something's got to give.

    I think we have two main parties currently in conditions of profound civil war and in which massive ideological differences - far beyond those covered by the notion of a broad church - are apparent. Our party system has been shown by Brexit to be woefully unfit for purpose and many MPs have been shown to be hopelessly at odds with their constituents.

    I think anyone who thinks this is all going to go away on March 29th is kidding themselves.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Burney View Post
    Certainly something's got to give.

    I think we have two main parties currently in conditions of profound civil war and in which massive ideological differences - far beyond those covered by the notion of a broad church - are apparent. Our party system has been shown by Brexit to be woefully unfit for purpose and many MPs have been shown to be hopelessly at odds with their constituents.

    I think anyone who thinks this is all going to go away on March 29th is kidding themselves.
    Obviously it wont disappear on 29 March. Over time, as the ramifications settle and the reality is cast in stone the political elite will slowly close ranks and return to normality. We have seen 'tidal changes' over the decades but it is around a century since the political landscape changed for good, when the Liberal Party disintegrated following the Great War. Since then no manner of chaos or crisis has left a permanent mark on the overall climate- two parties fighting over a narrow piece of political land and filled with the chosen and trained elite, with a few strays let in to provide the illusion of openness.

    Even the perpetual crises of the 70s served only to shift the Conservative Party to the right for a decade and the Labour Party to the left for even less. By the start of the 90s a new consensus emerged and both shifted naturally back to either side of the centre.

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