Actually, yes it is. Looks like it’s going to come down to a diamond-hard Brexit or no Brexit at all. Only one of those options has any democratic legitimacy.Originally Posted by Peter
Its great fun isn't it. I thought it would be the referendum that split the tories but its actually Brexit itself. Party in crisis, defunct government and Corbyn waiting in the wings with his little lefty beard.
Great fun
Bring it on.
Perhaps you are actually a traitor. I think, after our US president's antics today, that it's possible to ask the question. You are a traitor to the UK, even if your loyalty to AWIMB does not seem in question.
And even that a hugely tenuous one. The argument that 17 million people understood what they were voting for has been largely undermined by the rather obvious fact that nobody really has a clue how to do any of this or what it will look like.
But as discussed, the legitimacy of a democratic process is irrelevant as long as it is a British one.
I'm sorry, but that is a canard. One could question the legitimacy of any vote on the basis that people didn't know what they were voting for. When people voted for Tony Blair, were they voting for invading Iraq? When they voted for David Cameron were they voting for gay marriage? Of course not. No vote is specific or comprehensive in its meaning, but - whether you like them or not - votes are the only legitimate means of democratic expression we have.
All that was on the ballot was to remain in or leave the EU. The vote was to leave. Everything else is detail.
That is nonsense and you know it. You cant compare this with a single, reactive foreign policy issue or a minor civil rights issue within an election manifesto. IF for no other reason than that those decisions were not justified solely by the fact that people voted for them.
This was a single issue vote on one question. Possibly the most incomprehensible and complex question in our constitutional history.
Yes, people voted leave. They didnt vote for specific versions of it and we have no idea what they wanted from it (although we can make a guess in certain areas).
The process since has shown just how complicated it is. Each side is quick to point to a betrayal of the voters on various fairly minor detailed points but its all *******s.
Not to worry Peter, if this drags out much longer a significant portion of the Leave vote will be dead and they can have another vote which Remain will win comfortably.
Then it would only be fair to have a 'best of three'......Not to worry Peter, if this drags out much longer a significant portion of the Leave vote will be dead and they can have another vote which Remain will win comfortably.
The point is that all votes have obscure and unpredictable consequences that not every voter can be expected to understand. That is not a reason not to have the vote, however.
The logical conclusion of your position would be that, because the matter is simply too complex and obscure for voters to understand, they ought never to have been allowed to make a democratic decision on it.
I said before the referendum that they should not have been given the opportunity to vote for the leap in the dark. We negotiated the terms of staying, we should have set out the issues and requirements of leaving.
The interesting point is where does the legitimacy of parliament sit if it fails to ever agree a brexit deal? What is the shelf life of that referendum? Can it be surpassed by an election where a clear mandate to drop all this nonsense is given?
After all, the sovereignty of parliament is what this is all about isnt it.....
It goes a bit deeper than that. Essentially, you're saying is that EU membership has eaten so deeply into the bones of this country's democracy that it is simply too complicated and damaging to separate the two without killing the patient. This rather confirms what every Eurosceptic has been saying for the last 40 years.
If we cannot democratically unhitch ourselves from this monster, we are admitting that our democracy is not just undermined, but actually dead. The inescapable conclusion would be that the people may not govern themselves because the politicians and bureaucrats have sold their democratic birthright for a mess of pottage. The notion of national self-determination would be dead and we would effectively be told we must accept vassalage.
The consequences of such an admission are potentially disastrous - far more so, I would argue, than any negative short-term economic consequences.
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