Looks like May's having to cave on the amendments to the trade bill.

[Peter]

The point is that all votes have obscure and unpredictable consequences that not every voter can be expected to understand. That is not a reason not to have the vote, however.

The logical conclusion of your position would be that, because the matter is simply too complex and obscure for voters to understand, they ought never to have been allowed to make a democratic decision on it.

I said before the referendum that they should not have been given the opportunity to vote for the leap in the dark. We negotiated the terms of staying, we should have set out the issues and requirements of leaving.

The interesting point is where does the legitimacy of parliament sit if it fails to ever agree a brexit deal? What is the shelf life of that referendum? Can it be surpassed by an election where a clear mandate to drop all this nonsense is given?

After all, the sovereignty of parliament is what this is all about isnt it.....

[Burney]

I said before the referendum that they should not have been given the opportunity to vote for the leap in the dark. We negotiated the terms of staying, we should have set out the issues and requirements of leaving.

The interesting point is where does the legitimacy of parliament sit if it fails to ever agree a brexit deal? What is the shelf life of that referendum? Can it be surpassed by an election where a clear mandate to drop all this nonsense is given?

After all, the sovereignty of parliament is what this is all about isnt it.....

It goes a bit deeper than that. Essentially, you're saying is that EU membership has eaten so deeply into the bones of this country's democracy that it is simply too complicated and damaging to separate the two without killing the patient. This rather confirms what every Eurosceptic has been saying for the last 40 years.

If we cannot democratically unhitch ourselves from this monster, we are admitting that our democracy is not just undermined, but actually dead. The inescapable conclusion would be that the people may not govern themselves because the politicians and bureaucrats have sold their democratic birthright for a mess of pottage. The notion of national self-determination would be dead and we would effectively be told we must accept vassalage.

The consequences of such an admission are potentially disastrous - far more so, I would argue, than any negative short-term economic consequences.

[Sir C]

It goes a bit deeper than that. Essentially, you're saying is that EU membership has eaten so deeply into the bones of this country's democracy that it is simply too complicated and damaging to separate the two without killing the patient. This rather confirms what every Eurosceptic has been saying for the last 40 years.

If we cannot democratically unhitch ourselves from this monster, we are admitting that our democracy is not just undermined, but actually dead. The inescapable conclusion would be that the people may not govern themselves because the politicians and bureaucrats have sold their democratic birthright for a mess of pottage. The notion of national self-determination would be dead and we would effectively be told we must accept vassalage.

The consequences of such an admission are potentially disastrous - far more so, I would argue, than any negative short-term economic consequences.

Have you woken up in 1362, dear chap?

[Burney]

Have you woken up in 1362, dear chap?

The first one is yer actual King James Bible (as well you know), while the second accurately describes what would be the feudal nature of our relationship with Brussels/Berlin.

[Peter]

It goes a bit deeper than that. Essentially, you're saying is that EU membership has eaten so deeply into the bones of this country's democracy that it is simply too complicated and damaging to separate the two without killing the patient. This rather confirms what every Eurosceptic has been saying for the last 40 years.

If we cannot democratically unhitch ourselves from this monster, we are admitting that our democracy is not just undermined, but actually dead. The inescapable conclusion would be that the people may not govern themselves because the politicians and bureaucrats have sold their democratic birthright for a mess of pottage. The notion of national self-determination would be dead and we would effectively be told we must accept vassalage.

The consequences of such an admission are potentially disastrous - far more so, I would argue, than any negative short-term economic consequences.

No, I am not saying that. I am asking whether a parliament that continues to frustrate and betray the will of the people was worth fighting for in the first place.

If we want to leave to protect the sovereignty of parliament, where does it leave us if it becomes clear that we cant trust our own parliament to represent us? You talk frequently of the politicians and bureaucrats as though it is some Brexit conspiracy. THat is just how parliament works. It is what 'the likes of me' having been saying for years. You are fighting for the primacy of a backward, insular, self-preserving political elite that kept your biggest issue off the ballot for 40 years.

[Burney]

No, I am not saying that. I am asking whether a parliament that continues to frustrate and betray the will of the people was worth fighting for in the first place.

If we want to leave to protect the sovereignty of parliament, where does it leave us if it becomes clear that we cant trust our own parliament to represent us? You talk frequently of the politicians and bureaucrats as though it is some Brexit conspiracy. THat is just how parliament works. It is what 'the likes of me' having been saying for years. You are fighting for the primacy of a backward, insular, self-preserving political elite that kept your biggest issue off the ballot for 40 years.

Oh, if you're arguing that Brexit has revealed our parliamentary system, party structures and civil service to be wholly unfit for democratic purpose, you have my full agreement. Large-scale restructuring seems inevitable over the coming years, starting (I'm guessing) with the dismantling of the House of Lords and major changes to our parties.

[Monty92]

No, I am not saying that. I am asking whether a parliament that continues to frustrate and betray the will of the people was worth fighting for in the first place.

If we want to leave to protect the sovereignty of parliament, where does it leave us if it becomes clear that we cant trust our own parliament to represent us? You talk frequently of the politicians and bureaucrats as though it is some Brexit conspiracy. THat is just how parliament works. It is what 'the likes of me' having been saying for years. You are fighting for the primacy of a backward, insular, self-preserving political elite that kept your biggest issue off the ballot for 40 years.

It leaves us with the option of punishing them at the ballot box

[Peter]

It leaves us with the option of punishing them at the ballot box

Punishing who? The two main parties?

Who was it who said no matter who you vote for the government always gets in?

[Ash]

No, I am not saying that. I am asking whether a parliament that continues to frustrate and betray the will of the people was worth fighting for in the first place.

If we want to leave to protect the sovereignty of parliament, where does it leave us if it becomes clear that we cant trust our own parliament to represent us? You talk frequently of the politicians and bureaucrats as though it is some Brexit conspiracy. THat is just how parliament works. It is what 'the likes of me' having been saying for years. You are fighting for the primacy of a backward, insular, self-preserving political elite that kept your biggest issue off the ballot for 40 years.

"Better a bad Parliament, than a good King". - Tony Benn

Brexit should be just the first step in re-energising democracy and building a new political landscape, with new political parties and everything up for grabs in terms of ideas. And people like you, my friend, should be on the side of this peaceful, democratic revolution.

[Peter]

"Better a bad Parliament, than a good King". - Tony Benn

Brexit should be just the first step in re-energising democracy and building a new political landscape, with new political parties and everything up for grabs in terms of ideas. And people like you, my friend, should be on the side of this peaceful, democratic revolution.

I would be but you know as well as I do that it wont happen. The noble British voters will get their country back and go back to sleep.

You get the government you deserve, and all that.