The Donald absolutely ripping into the krauts, here.

[Ash]

What's he saying there?

Corbz was right when he said we should hire Trump for the Brexit negotiations. Actually I said it myself the day before he did, so I expect he reads AWIMB.

Ok, he didn't exactly say that before some pedant points it out but not far off.

[Burney]

What's he saying there?

Corbz was right when he said we should hire Trump for the Brexit negotiations. Actually I said it myself the day before he did, so I expect he reads AWIMB.

Ok, he didn't exactly say that before some pedant points it out but not far off.

He's pointing out that Germany is supposed to be defending NATO from Russia, but is in its pocket due to energy deals.

[Ash]

He's pointing out that Germany is supposed to be defending NATO from Russia, but is in its pocket due to energy deals.

Pffft. He's saying that for the jackals at home. Russia is not attacking NATO and has no intention of doing so. NATO is encircling Russia though.

[Sir C]

Pffft. He's saying that for the jackals at home. Russia is not attacking NATO and has no intention of doing so. NATO is encircling Russia though.

Encircling Russia?

Can you think of a single reason why the former countires of the Warsaw Pact and the Baltic States might be nervous enough of the cuddly Russian bear to wish to join a strong military alliance? Just one reason?

I'll give you a clue. 45 years of brutal Russian occupation. Howzat?

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Encircling Russia?

Can you think of a single reason why the former countires of the Warsaw Pact and the Baltic States might be nervous enough of the cuddly Russian bear to wish to join a strong military alliance? Just one reason?

I'll give you a clue. 45 years of brutal Russian occupation. Howzat?

True.

And if you look at the world from above, you understand why fear of encirclement has been engrained in the Russian psyche since the Tsars.

[Burney]

True.

And if you look at the world from above, you understand why fear of encirclement has been engrained in the Russian psyche since the Tsars.

Yes, but the problem is that Russia's response to that threat has tended to be aggression rather than effective long-term alliances.

[Peter]

Yes, but the problem is that Russia's response to that threat has tended to be aggression rather than effective long-term alliances.

THey tried effective long term alliances but the likes of you said it was brutal communist occupation.

The poor old Russians just cant win.

[Burney]

Pffft. He's saying that for the jackals at home. Russia is not attacking NATO and has no intention of doing so. NATO is encircling Russia though.

The entire history of Russia since Peter The Great has been about Russia attempting to expand its territories, a. NATO wasn't developed for a laugh. It was developed as a westward check to that historical reality. It still exists for that purpose.

[Ash]

The entire history of Russia since Peter The Great has been about Russia attempting to expand its territories, a. NATO wasn't developed for a laugh. It was developed as a westward check to that historical reality. It still exists for that purpose.

NATO did its job during the cold war. It helped keep the main peace in a multi-polar world, and perhaps should have disbanded with the USSR. Since then NATO has been an aggressive tool of the USA.

Russia doesn't need more territory, it needs peace and good relations. You mentioned allies - it now has a strong alliance with China and is a key player in the BRI and SCO projects, and is the only power with good relations with all the countries in the middle east - including Israel, KSA, Syria and Iran.

Trump is portrayed as a lunatic but might yet be a peacemaker. He wants to get on with Russia and China, and wants peace in Korea. The place he might not want peace though is Iran.

To go back to the original point - he also wants to sell his more expensive LNG to Germany, who would prefer to buy cheaper energy from Russia.

[Burney]

NATO did its job during the cold war. It helped keep the main peace in a multi-polar world, and perhaps should have disbanded with the USSR. Since then NATO has been an aggressive tool of the USA.

Russia doesn't need more territory, it needs peace and good relations. You mentioned allies - it now has a strong alliance with China and is a key player in the BRI and SCO projects, and is the only power with good relations with all the countries in the middle east - including Israel, KSA, Syria and Iran.

Trump is portrayed as a lunatic but might yet be a peacemaker. He wants to get on with Russia and China, and wants peace in Korea. The place he might not want peace though is Iran.

To go back to the original point - he also wants to sell his more expensive LNG to Germany, who would prefer to buy cheaper energy from Russia.

I think it's a trifle disingenuous of you to ignore the fact that Putin's popularity has to no small extent lain in his revival of Russian nationalism and that that has entailed a highly aggressive and domineering approach over those former Russian states that became independent at the end of the Cold War. Russia may not 'need' more territory, but it does regard its former republics as effectively satellite states that it is entitled to control and bully. When it becomes clear that the states themselves have other ideas, Putin has never been slow to threaten and/or use his military to force them into obeisance. Given that (and Russia's history of aggression to - for instance - Poland and Ukraine), is it really a surprise that Russia's neighbours should seek security in an alliance with NATO?

History makes it clear that the notion of Russia being an innocent victim encroached upon by the West is nonsense. A large part of Russia's history is one of aggression towards and colonisation of its immediate western neighbours and that history is inevitably going to inform modern attitudes.