I must say, I do like the way the Israelis don't fvck about.

[Peter]

Of course. Trump gets it. People don't actually want much from their governments other than to protect them regardless of the 'optics' or other sensitivities.

Chamberlain was to some extent a victim of previous governments' failure to anticipate and prepare for the need for war (I'm looking at you, Stanley Baldwin) and did some good things post-Munich when he finally realised that war was unavoidable, but yes, some of his actions were shamefully craven.

See, to me that is incredibly unfair. His crime (if there was one) was being taken in by Hitler's true ambitions. THe policy he followed was dictated not by previous governments but overwhelmingly by popular opinion, which was genuinely terrified of a war and particularly a war that could be avoided.

There is a responsibility that comes with being a major power where the prospect of action, and occasionally the threat of it, carries moral as well as military might. It comes with maturity. It is perhaps slightly unfair to demand this maturity from ISrael at this point in their history, given the fairly recent past and the stormy present. But it needs to develop.

[Burney]

See, to me that is incredibly unfair. His crime (if there was one) was being taken in by Hitler's true ambitions. THe policy he followed was dictated not by previous governments but overwhelmingly by popular opinion, which was genuinely terrified of a war and particularly a war that could be avoided.

There is a responsibility that comes with being a major power where the prospect of action, and occasionally the threat of it, carries moral as well as military might. It comes with maturity. It is perhaps slightly unfair to demand this maturity from ISrael at this point in their history, given the fairly recent past and the stormy present. But it needs to develop.

Israelis understand rather better than most 'the tragic sense of life' as Douglas Murray puts it. They know that, if not defended vigorously, everything one takes for granted can be swept away in a very short space of time. Murray also attributes to this the very different attitudes to immigration of western and eastern Europeans. Former Soviet Bloc countries understand that freedom and safety are precious and fragile, while western Europeans three generations removed from WWII have forgotten and think they are forever.

We may one day regret we were so much more 'mature' than Israel.

[Peter]

Israelis understand rather better than most 'the tragic sense of life' as Douglas Murray puts it. They know that, if not defended vigorously, everything one takes for granted can be swept away in a very short space of time. Murray also attributes this to the very different attitudes to immigration of western and eastern Europeans. Former Soviet Bloc countries understand that freedom and safety are precious and fragile, while western Europeans three generations removed from WWII have forgotten and think they are forever.

We may one day regret we were so much more 'mature' than Israel.

and with the weapons at Trump's disposal we may very soon regret a lack of maturity.

I dont think conflating foreign policy with immigration is terribly helpful here, although I do get the point you are making (bloody Islamophobe!)

[Burney]

and with the weapons at Trump's disposal we may very soon regret a lack of maturity.

I dont think conflating foreign policy with immigration is terribly helpful here, although I do get the point you are making (bloody Islamophobe!)

The conflation is deliberate and valid. Governments ought to have a clear vision of what one's country means, what it should be and a clear-eyed grasp of how that should be achieved and where the red lines are. The Israelis have those things and we - or at least our politicians - have frittered them away on fantasies of a world without nation states.

[Peter]

The conflation is deliberate and valid. Governments ought to have a clear vision of what one's country means, what it should be and a clear-eyed grasp of how that should be achieved and where the red lines are. The Israelis have those things and we - or at least our politicians - have frittered them away on fantasies of a world without nation states.

But the rise of nation states led to repeated wars, empires forming and collapsing and, even worse, ordinary people becoming somewhat involved in how a country is run.

In short, it was a nightmare. Hence the EU, the UN, NATO and all the other apparatus of the new world order swept in to rescue us from our parochial, narrow minded view of our own corner of the world.

We all bleed, b. We all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures and we all believe in a flat back four.

We people are one. You and your ilk want to go back to the chaos of nationalism.... shame on you!

[Burney]

But the rise of nation states led to repeated wars, empires forming and collapsing and, even worse, ordinary people becoming somewhat involved in how a country is run.

In short, it was a nightmare. Hence the EU, the UN, NATO and all the other apparatus of the new world order swept in to rescue us from our parochial, narrow minded view of our own corner of the world.

We all bleed, b. We all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures and we all believe in a flat back four.

We people are one. You and your ilk want to go back to the chaos of nationalism.... shame on you!

No-one said it was a bed of roses. However, it's abundantly clear that, despite the best efforts of politicians for 70 years, the notion of the nation state and its attendant nationalisms are stubbornly persistent. This is because people like them. They like identifying with people who speak the same language, eat the same food, share the same cultural reference points. They prefer such people to the alternative. This is why the notion of a European identity equivalent to one's national identity is plainly laughable.

[Peter]

No-one said it was a bed of roses. However, it's abundantly clear that, despite the best efforts of politicians for 70 years, the notion of the nation state and its attendant nationalisms are stubbornly persistent. This is because people like them. They like identifying with people who speak the same language, eat the same food, share the same cultural reference points. They prefer such people to the alternative. This is why the notion of a European identity equivalent to one's national identity is plainly laughable.

I think we both know that isnt true when it comes to food. Immigration saved us from a century of pork pies, pasties and mashed potato.

Thank **** for the Indians, the Chinese, the Turks and, to a lesser extent, our Italian friends.