We used to cream our pants when Freddie and Bobby P scored 15 a season from out wide.

[Peter]

Dunno. If players see a referee isn't going to punish them to commit fouls, it will embolden them to commit more and worse fouls. I think United got that sense after a couple of the early 'reducers' on JAR went unpunished and it got worse from there. Equally, linesmen will take their lead from the ref.

In short, I don't believe the game was bent because 'cui bono?' I do, however, believe that Riley was biased (consciously or unconsciously) against Arsenal and refereed accordingly. Still disgraceful, but not 'bent' in the sense of there being a conspiracy.

What I did find extraordinary, though, was the determination of the media to largely ignore the appalling refereeing of such a big game. I can only conclude that this was because they realised most of their audience (and football more widely) wanted Arsenal to lose and so they didn't want to question the legitimacy of that result by pointing out that it was probably the most dreadfully biased and incompetent refereeing display in the history of the Premier League.

I dont really buy that at all. I am not saying that Riley was on the payroll. I am saying that United knew full well before the game that they could seriously take the piss and he wouldn't lift a finger. Either through indirect influence, sheer pressure or just because they knew Riley was hopelessly weak. You can see this in how they pressure him after every awful challenge. Neville goes up and screams in his face after hacking Reyes to the floor or the third time. What on earth is he complaining about? How can he possibly be angry about something?

This was not the usual example of a ref being a 'homer'... it was the clearest possible example of a referee being simply unwilling to give any kind of decision against one side and that side being very, very confident that that was the case.

I think the premier league should be eternally ashamed of the fact that the longest unbeaten run in its history was brought to an end in this fashion.

The media chose to focus on the pizza incident afterwards instead- hard to believe but somehow we came out of this game as the bad guys!

[World's End Stella]

I dont really buy that at all. I am not saying that Riley was on the payroll. I am saying that United knew full well before the game that they could seriously take the piss and he wouldn't lift a finger. Either through indirect influence, sheer pressure or just because they knew Riley was hopelessly weak. You can see this in how they pressure him after every awful challenge. Neville goes up and screams in his face after hacking Reyes to the floor or the third time. What on earth is he complaining about? How can he possibly be angry about something?

This was not the usual example of a ref being a 'homer'... it was the clearest possible example of a referee being simply unwilling to give any kind of decision against one side and that side being very, very confident that that was the case.

I think the premier league should be eternally ashamed of the fact that the longest unbeaten run in its history was brought to an end in this fashion.

The media chose to focus on the pizza incident afterwards instead- hard to believe but somehow we came out of this game as the bad guys!

I doubt ManU went into the game confident that Riley would cheat for them, however in the back of their minds they also knew what his record was for them.

The key point in the match was probably the Cole yellow. The Munichs had just spent about 10-15 minutes kicking Reyes off the park and G Neville probably should have seen red at that point, yet they hadn't received a card of any kind. At that point Cole commits a slightly cynical, non-violent foul and gets a yellow.

I'm guessing that at that point they all thought to themselves 'game on - this is 12 v 11' and then proceeded to act accordingly over the rest of the game.

But shouldn't we move on? No one was angrier than I, no one remains as bitter and twisted as I (well, maybe IUFG) but surely we should get over this? I mean, it really isn't healthy.

[Peter]

I doubt ManU went into the game confident that Riley would cheat for them, however in the back of their minds they also knew what his record was for them.

The key point in the match was probably the Cole yellow. The Munichs had just spent about 10-15 minutes kicking Reyes off the park and G Neville probably should have seen red at that point, yet they hadn't received a card of any kind. At that point Cole commits a slightly cynical, non-violent foul and gets a yellow.

I'm guessing that at that point they all thought to themselves 'game on - this is 12 v 11' and then proceeded to act accordingly over the rest of the game.

But shouldn't we move on? No one was angrier than I, no one remains as bitter and twisted as I (well, maybe IUFG) but surely we should get over this? I mean, it really isn't healthy.

I think we would get over it if it was ever accepted that it happened. It continues to eat at people because it was roundly ignored.

THe problem with your argument is that Cole's challenge was a yellow card. A fairly soft one, but a deliberate kick with no attempt to play the ball. You are highlighting about the only decision Riley got right in the whole game!

I think it is incredibly generous to think that United's approach to that game was accidental, or opportunist. Particularly having seen them do it time and time again against us at Old Trafford (never at Highbury) and had seen it work pretty much all the time. Vieira's sending off, the soft penalty, the game in 2002 when Van Nistelrooy came on for twenty minutes and, if I remember correctly, committed two blatant red card offences (one a punch in Frieddie's chest right in front of the ref) and at least three other yellow card offences and not get so much as a booking.

[World's End Stella]

I think we would get over it if it was ever accepted that it happened. It continues to eat at people because it was roundly ignored.

THe problem with your argument is that Cole's challenge was a yellow card. A fairly soft one, but a deliberate kick with no attempt to play the ball. You are highlighting about the only decision Riley got right in the whole game!

I think it is incredibly generous to think that United's approach to that game was accidental, or opportunist. Particularly having seen them do it time and time again against us at Old Trafford (never at Highbury) and had seen it work pretty much all the time. Vieira's sending off, the soft penalty, the game in 2002 when Van Nistelrooy came on for twenty minutes and, if I remember correctly, committed two blatant red card offences (one a punch in Frieddie's chest right in front of the ref) and at least three other yellow card offences and not get so much as a booking.

I never said it was accidental, I said I don't think that they expected Riley to cheat, I think they discovered that he was cheating once the game started and acted accordingly.

They clearly targeted Reyes as a group and I would be surprised if there wasn't some direction from the manager there. Nice comparison to the FA Cup game there where they did the same thing, came out kicking us all over the pitch. Jeff Winter immediately pulled out the cards, the game settled down and we played football and won 2-0.

Still think we should move on, mind.

[Burney]

I never said it was accidental, I said I don't think that they expected Riley, I think they discovered that he was cheating once the game started and acted accordingly.

They clearly targeted Reyes as a group and I would be surprised if there wasn't some direction from the manager there. Nice comparison to the FA Cup game there where they did the same thing, came out kicking us all over the pitch. Jeff Winter immediately pulled out the cards, the game settled down and we played football and won 2-0.

Still think we should move on, mind.

When did football fans ever 'move on'? It's just not what they do.

[SWv2]

When did football fans ever 'move on'? It's just not what they do.

We as a nation moved on from Henry's handball.

Well some of us did.

[Burney]

We as a nation moved on from Henry's handball.

Well some of us did.

Let me guess: the Arsenal-supporting ones did? The others not so much?

[Peter]

I never said it was accidental, I said I don't think that they expected Riley to cheat, I think they discovered that he was cheating once the game started and acted accordingly.

They clearly targeted Reyes as a group and I would be surprised if there wasn't some direction from the manager there. Nice comparison to the FA Cup game there where they did the same thing, came out kicking us all over the pitch. Jeff Winter immediately pulled out the cards, the game settled down and we played football and won 2-0.

Still think we should move on, mind.

Accidental, or opportunist. You seem to be saying it was unplanned and they spotted Riley was cheating and seized on it. I dont agree with that at all. Given his history at Old Trafford they would be remarkably stupid if they didnt already know how he would react.

It is funny, you will find plenty of journalists and articles rubbishing the notion that the nevilles targeted Reyes. This despite Phil Neville himself saying that he and his brother did target Reyes, that it was all part of the plan, and that they knew it would ruffle Arsenal.

I will move on when we get justice.

[IUFG]

I will move on when we get justice.

That's the spirit, p.

Riley being pushed off a very tall building will just about sate me.

[Peter]

That's the spirit, p.

Riley being pushed off a very tall building will just about sate me.

And someone giving Van Nistelrooy a ****ing good kicking......