So it seems our chums in the ever-democratic EU are threatening to suspend Poland's

[World's End Stella]

Like most of your glib sort, you forget that the over 55s were the people who voted us into Europe in the first place. They have experienced more of Europe for longer than anyone else and they found it wanting. They are also the generation who can remember what life was like before the EU and if, with hindsight, they decided they rather preferred it, I'd say that represents a fairly damning judgement on the 'benefits' of EU membership to ordinary people, wouldn't you?

As for your assertion that 'we can leave if we want to', it's obvious bullshīt. We had one chance in my lifetime to leave due to an unprecedented and almost certainly never-to-be-repeated set of circumstances. Thankfully, we took it. And even then - with a clear vote in favour of leaving - our overlords (to whom you are happy to cede more and more powers, by the way) are doing everything in their power to frustrate that democratic decision.

Oh, and it's beside the point, but there's nothing 'scaremongering' about this country's immigration issue, I can assure you.

I doubt very many people who remember life in the 50s and 60s think it is preferable to our current lifestyle unless they are viewing it through bigoted eyes. By virtually every measurable standard our lifestyle has improved. Unemployment levels, home ownership, life expectancy, education levels, quality of healthcare - things get better with time, mostly because human beings are a rather clever lot who tend to get things right.

I'm disappointed in your lack of faith in the intellects of the under 55s, Burnley. Are we really that stupid?

And I never said I was happy to cede more power to the EU, so please stop making things up. I said That I was happy to cede some control if the upside merited it, which is hardly the same thing.

[Burney]

I doubt very many people who remember life in the 50s and 60s think it is preferable to our current lifestyle unless they are viewing it through bigoted eyes. By virtually every measurable standard our lifestyle has improved. Unemployment levels, home ownership, life expectancy, education levels, quality of healthcare - things get better with time, mostly because human beings are a rather clever lot who tend to get things right.

I'm disappointed in your lack of faith in the intellects of the under 55s, Burnley. Are we really that stupid?

And I never said I was happy to cede more power to the EU, so please stop making things up. I said That I was happy to cede some control if the upside merited it, which is hardly the same thing.

So you're now suggesting the EU has brought all these benefits, are you? That's a rather grandiose claim, if I may say so. How have all those developed countries not in the EU managed, I wonder?
Of course various things in life have got better. That has nothing to do, however, with membership of the Common Market/EEC/EC/EU, upon which over-55s made a judgement and - as I say - found it wanting.

[Sir C]

So you're now suggesting the EU has brought all these benefits, are you? That's a rather grandiose claim, if I may say so. How have all those developed countries not in the EU managed, I wonder?
Of course various things in life have got better. That has nothing to do, however, with membership of the Common Market/EEC/EC/EU, upon which over-55s made a judgement and - as I say - found it wanting.

Consider life in Switzerland, with the famine and the plagues and that

[Burney]

Consider life in Switzerland, with the famine and the plagues and that

Yes. And Australia. Until I read WES's post, I hadn't realised Mad Max was a documentary.

[redgunamo]

So you're now suggesting the EU has brought all these benefits, are you? That's a rather grandiose claim, if I may say so. How have all those developed countries not in the EU managed, I wonder?
Of course various things in life have got better. That has nothing to do, however, with membership of the Common Market/EEC/EC/EU, upon which over-55s made a judgement and - as I say - found it wanting.

You see what I mean? You do get this, yet you claim to see no issue with Wenger declaring He built the Arsenal Football Club practically single-handedly.

As I said, fascinating.

[World's End Stella]

So you're now suggesting the EU has brought all these benefits, are you? That's a rather grandiose claim, if I may say so. How have all those developed countries not in the EU managed, I wonder?
Of course various things in life have got better. That has nothing to do, however, with membership of the Common Market/EEC/EC/EU, upon which over-55s made a judgement and - as I say - found it wanting.

You really do love logical leaps, Burney.

No, I never said that. You said that over 55s decided they preferred life pre EU and that's why they voted Leave and that that is a powerful argument for Leave. I pointed out that by virtually every measurable standard life is better now, so that argument doesn't really hold. At no point did I credit the EU for those improvements.

[Burney]

You really do love logical leaps, Burney.

No, I never said that. You said that over 55s decided they preferred life pre EU and that's why they voted Leave and that that is a powerful argument for Leave. I pointed out that by virtually every measurable standard life is better now, so that argument doesn't really hold. At no point did I credit the EU for those improvements.

Given the context of my remarks, it should be abundantly clear that I was referring to those areas of life in which membership of the EU has had an influence. You were the one who artificially conflated that with a range of irrelevant sociological factors that are common to every developed country.

[redgunamo]

Given the context of my remarks, it should be abundantly clear that I was referring to those areas of life in which membership of the EU has had an influence. You were the one who artificially conflated that with a range of irrelevant sociological factors that are common to every developed country.

I think you had it right the first time; Brexit wasn't about facts, it was more about feelings and grabbing a rare opportunity to express the feeling that we simply don't like Europeans very much.

Tolerate them, yes. Even enjoy them. But "like"? No. We're not really going to "Leave" though; that was never the intention. At least, of Brexit.

[World's End Stella]

I think you had it right the first time; Brexit wasn't about facts, it was more about feelings and grabbing a rare opportunity to express the feeling that we simply don't like Europeans very much.

Tolerate them, yes. Even enjoy them. But "like"? No. We're not really going to "Leave" though; that was never the intention. At least, of Brexit.

There you go, red, spot on all of that. The quantitative analysis said Remain.

And for that reason, we will. The rest is all just packaging.