Something vaguely interesting in the wake of recent terrorist attacks.

[Peter]

But I'm happy to acknowledge that point about every religion. However, that does not absolve Islam. Equally, no other religions today represent a threat to me or to my society except Islam, so why would I bother equivocating about the iniquities of other faiths that don't threaten me or my way of life?

Ok. Which was the original point, and wasn't made to you.

[Monty92]

Ok. Which was the original point, and wasn't made to you.

I am happy to do exactly the same and never said otherwise.

Actually the original point was whether terrorists are mentally ill. You seem to be saying they must be because they can't possibly believe all that rubbish and be prepared to kill for it. I then asked you if you feel the same about states that kill gays and apostates. You said that's different because state sanctioned executions are not murder and anyway these laws are only in place because of geopolitics turning religion bad.

I then asked you about why western terrorists who have lived/visited such societies are mentally ill and not simply a product of their environment too. I also asked about muslim honour killings and muslim gang rapes in the UK and which category these fit in. I also asked about fathers who stone their own daughters to death and whether they are mentally ill or a product of their environment. Any chance of a response?

[Burney]

I am happy to do exactly the same and never said otherwise.

Actually the original point was whether terrorists are mentally ill. You seem to be saying they must be because they can't possibly believe all that rubbish and be prepared to kill for it. I then asked you if you feel the same about states that murder gays and apostates. You said that's different because state sanctioned executions are not murder and anyway these laws are only in place because of geopolitics.

I then asked you about why terrorists who have lived/visited such societies are not similarly a product of their environment. I also asked about muslim honour killings and muslim gang rapes in the UK and which category these fit in. I also asked about fathers who stone their own daughters to death and whether they are mentally ill or a product of their environment. Any chance of a response?

This is the other thing: it has become almost impossible for yer modern, secular, liberal intellectual to comprehend the idea of all-encompassing faith that directs one's actions. The idea of someone actually believing in things like heaven, hell and 72 houris is too much for the modern mind. Which is odd, since mankind has been convinced of such things far longer in historical terms than he hasn't.

It's a failure of empathy. Without understanding that these ****s ACTUALLY MEAN THIS ****, you can't begin to tackle the problem.

[Monty92]

This is the other thing: it has become almost impossible for yer modern, secular, liberal intellectual to comprehend the idea of all-encompassing faith that directs one's actions. The idea of someone actually believing in things live heaven, hell and 72 houris is too much for the modern mind. Which is odd, since mankind has been convinced of such things far longer in historical terms than he hasn't.

It's a failure of empathy. Without understanding that these ****s ACTUALLY MEAN THIS ****, you can't begin to tackle the problem.

Exactly. Once you allow yourself to accept that these fellas actually believe they are assuring themselves a fast-track ticket to paradise, it is no longer such a mystery and you are far less inclined to write them off as mentally ill.

Or at least no more mentally ill than someone who believes in horoscopes, anyway.

[Burney]

Exactly. Once you allow yourself to accept that these fellas actually believe they are assuring themselves a fast-track ticket to paradise, it is no longer such a mystery and you are far less inclined to write them off as mentally ill.

Or at least no more mentally ill than believing in horoscopes, anyway.

You can go on YouTube and see parents sincerely celebrating the 'martyrdom' of their child. In 'The Looming Tower' you can read about Mujahideen in Afghanistan standing enviously over the mangled corpse of their comrade because he's off in Paradise while they're still on shītty old earth.

These things are real, they're alarmingly common and to call them 'mad' is true only in the most glib sense, since this is a 'madness' that has afflicted mankind for most of its history.

[Monty92]

You can go on YouTube and see parents sincerely celebrating the 'martyrdom' of their child. In 'The Looming Tower' you can read about Mujahideen in Afghanistan standing enviously over the mangled corpse of their comrade because he's off in Paradise while they're still on shītty old earth.

These things are real, they're alarmingly common and to call them 'mad' is true only in the most glib sense, since this is a 'madness' has afflicted mankind for most of its history.

Yet according to Peter, parents celebrating the martyrdom of their child are merely a product of their environment, and if religion is a factor in their behaviour it is certainly not a primary one.

Ditto a man stoning his own daughter to death in Afghanistan.

But a man who blows up a pop concert in Manchester....must be a mental.

[Peter]

Yet according to Peter, parents celebrating the martyrdom of their child are merely a product of their environment, and if religion is a factor in their behaviour it is certainly not a primary one.

Ditto a man stoning his own daughter to death in Afghanistan.

But a man who blows up a pop concert in Manchester....must be a mental.

See... a minute ago I apparently refused to answer these questions yet now you magically have my answer.

[Peter]

You can go on YouTube and see parents sincerely celebrating the 'martyrdom' of their child. In 'The Looming Tower' you can read about Mujahideen in Afghanistan standing enviously over the mangled corpse of their comrade because he's off in Paradise while they're still on shītty old earth.

These things are real, they're alarmingly common and to call them 'mad' is true only in the most glib sense, since this is a 'madness' has afflicted mankind for most of its history.

So.... what happened to your Venn diagram then?

[Burney]

So.... what happened to your Venn diagram then?

What I'm saying in no way contradicts that. Of course extremism of all sorts will attract those with mental issues who seek the comfort of un-nuanced absolutes. However, the fact that there is crossover on the Venn diagram doesn't mean that everyone - or even a majority - of those involved in extremist activities is mentally ill.
Much of the time the 'mental illness' thing is simply a comfort blanket that means we don't have to face up to the fact that sane men can kiss their loved ones goodbye in the morning and, with a light heart, go on to perform acts of profound barbarity the same day because their faith tells them it's OK.

[redgunamo]

This is the other thing: it has become almost impossible for yer modern, secular, liberal intellectual to comprehend the idea of all-encompassing faith that directs one's actions. The idea of someone actually believing in things like heaven, hell and 72 houris is too much for the modern mind. Which is odd, since mankind has been convinced of such things far longer in historical terms than he hasn't.

It's a failure of empathy. Without understanding that these ****s ACTUALLY MEAN THIS ****, you can't begin to tackle the problem.

We are not fighting so that you will offer us something; we are fighting to eliminate you, as the man said. I don't believe that either but it is certainly what I would say, in his shoes; more donations and better sympathy and support that way.

Think of it as a teenager's temper tantrum.