:clap: The Boy Owen got there first.

[Peter]

Yes, but only if you look at it from a purely post-Enlightenment, rationalist standpoint in which religious belief is an optional extra rather than a given.

To medieval man, God was real. No ifs, no buts. His nature may occasionally have been disputed, but never His existence or His authority. There was therefore nothing irrational about belief in God or adherence to His strictures. The fact is that Islamic culture and society still very much exist in the medieval paradigm in this sense. Indeed, a desire to take the world back to a pre-medieval state is very much to be desired as far as the likes of ISIS are concerned.

The logic doesn't extend beyond 'this is by definition true so I must do it'..... its not so much logical as mechanical.

[Burney]

The logic doesn't extend beyond 'this is by definition true so I must do it'..... its not so much logical as mechanical.

Sure, but we all have articles of faith, don't we? For us it's pretty much a mechanical article of faith to say that democracy is good, free speech is good, women and gays should have the same rights as straight men and that there should be no racial discrimination.

We take those things as givens, but they are anything but in global and historical terms. They are, in fact, simply products of our time, our society and moral outlook. Equally, the belief that there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger is just as much a given to a billion or so muslims worldwide. We may see it as madness, but it's nothing of the sort. It's just a different belief system.

[Ash]

Sure, but we all have articles of faith, don't we? For us it's pretty much a mechanical article of faith to say that democracy is good, free speech is good, women and gays should have the same rights as straight men and that there should be no racial discrimination.

What we should be doing to defend ourselves against being massacred in the streets is to start by defending those values imo.

[Burney]

What we should be doing to defend ourselves against being massacred in the streets is to start by defending those values imo.

I agree entirely. All I'm saying is let's not get hung up on thinking that our core beliefs are objective truths while the other guy's are just delusional nonsense.

[Monty92]

I agree entirely. All I'm saying is let's not get hung up on thinking that our core beliefs are objective truths while the other guy's are just delusional nonsense.

They are objective truths in a scientific sense, since truth has an symbiotic relationship with science.

[World's End Stella]

They are objective truths in a scientific sense, since truth has an symbiotic relationship with science.

You mean there is always truth in science? Once science has confirmed something is true you know it to be so without any requirement for faith?

Blimey, there's my understanding of over 400 years of scientific investigation blown out the window.

[Monty92]

You mean there is always truth in science? Once science has confirmed something is true you know it to be so without any requirement for faith?

Blimey, there's my understanding of over 400 years of scientific investigation blown out the window.

Not quite. There are objective truths to be found in observable, empirical science. Things we know make life better for humans. Of course, science is always open to refutation (unlike religion, and particularly Islam).

[Burney]

They are objective truths in a scientific sense, since truth has an symbiotic relationship with science.

No. They are value judgments based on a particular set of mores. There is nothing objectively true about the statement 'A woman should be treated equally to a man' or 'You should not discriminate against homosexuals'. They are simply beliefs that we hold.

[Monty92]

No. They are value judgments based on a particular set of mores. There is nothing objectively true about the statement 'A woman should be treated equally to a man' or 'You should not discriminate against homosexuals'. They are simply beliefs that we hold.

I disagree. The reasons why a woman should be treated equally to a man can be found in science, or at least are supported by science.

[Sir C]

No. They are value judgments based on a particular set of mores. There is nothing objectively true about the statement 'A woman should be treated equally to a man' or 'You should not discriminate against homosexuals'. They are simply beliefs that we hold.

No one believes any of that shít really, though.