:clap: The Boy Owen got there first.

[Burney]

Very true. By the same token, doing as you are instructed to do is not a logical act. It can be an act of obedience, of self-preservation, of belief. By definition it is derived not by any logical process but by instruction. Be it religious doctrine or voices in your head.

Yes, but only if you look at it from a purely post-Enlightenment, rationalist standpoint in which religious belief is an optional extra rather than a given.

To medieval man, God was real. No ifs, no buts. His nature may occasionally have been disputed, but never His existence or His authority. There was therefore nothing irrational about belief in God or adherence to His strictures. The fact is that Islamic culture and society still very much exist in the medieval paradigm in this sense. Indeed, a desire to take the world back to a pre-medieval state is very much to be desired as far as the likes of ISIS are concerned.

[Peter]

Yes, but only if you look at it from a purely post-Enlightenment, rationalist standpoint in which religious belief is an optional extra rather than a given.

To medieval man, God was real. No ifs, no buts. His nature may occasionally have been disputed, but never His existence or His authority. There was therefore nothing irrational about belief in God or adherence to His strictures. The fact is that Islamic culture and society still very much exist in the medieval paradigm in this sense. Indeed, a desire to take the world back to a pre-medieval state is very much to be desired as far as the likes of ISIS are concerned.

The logic doesn't extend beyond 'this is by definition true so I must do it'..... its not so much logical as mechanical.

[Burney]

The logic doesn't extend beyond 'this is by definition true so I must do it'..... its not so much logical as mechanical.

Sure, but we all have articles of faith, don't we? For us it's pretty much a mechanical article of faith to say that democracy is good, free speech is good, women and gays should have the same rights as straight men and that there should be no racial discrimination.

We take those things as givens, but they are anything but in global and historical terms. They are, in fact, simply products of our time, our society and moral outlook. Equally, the belief that there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger is just as much a given to a billion or so muslims worldwide. We may see it as madness, but it's nothing of the sort. It's just a different belief system.

[Ash]

Sure, but we all have articles of faith, don't we? For us it's pretty much a mechanical article of faith to say that democracy is good, free speech is good, women and gays should have the same rights as straight men and that there should be no racial discrimination.

What we should be doing to defend ourselves against being massacred in the streets is to start by defending those values imo.

[Burney]

What we should be doing to defend ourselves against being massacred in the streets is to start by defending those values imo.

I agree entirely. All I'm saying is let's not get hung up on thinking that our core beliefs are objective truths while the other guy's are just delusional nonsense.

[Monty92]

I agree entirely. All I'm saying is let's not get hung up on thinking that our core beliefs are objective truths while the other guy's are just delusional nonsense.

They are objective truths in a scientific sense, since truth has an symbiotic relationship with science.

[World's End Stella]

They are objective truths in a scientific sense, since truth has an symbiotic relationship with science.

You mean there is always truth in science? Once science has confirmed something is true you know it to be so without any requirement for faith?

Blimey, there's my understanding of over 400 years of scientific investigation blown out the window.

[Burney]

They are objective truths in a scientific sense, since truth has an symbiotic relationship with science.

No. They are value judgments based on a particular set of mores. There is nothing objectively true about the statement 'A woman should be treated equally to a man' or 'You should not discriminate against homosexuals'. They are simply beliefs that we hold.

[Ash]

They are objective truths in a scientific sense, since truth has an symbiotic relationship with science.

They're not. They're value judgements derived from hundreds of years of western liberal thought since the enlightenment. Claiming a scientific basis for them is untrue but they are OUR values for OUR civiliation, and when a bunch of cvnts go around blowing us up in our own manor until we submit to their backward values we must defend OUR values if there is to be any 'unity' around which to unite.

That means driving a bus throught the contemporary fake-liberal values of multicultural bubbles, "you can't say that" restrictions on free speech, and accepting the oppression of millions of women in the name of cultural diversity.

(It would also help if the West stopped backing Sunni head-choppers against their secular opponents but that's another story.)

[Peter]

Sure, but we all have articles of faith, don't we? For us it's pretty much a mechanical article of faith to say that democracy is good, free speech is good, women and gays should have the same rights as straight men and that there should be no racial discrimination.

We take those things as givens, but they are anything but in global and historical terms. They are, in fact, simply products of our time, our society and moral outlook. Equally, the belief that there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger is just as much a given to a billion or so muslims worldwide. We may see it as madness, but it's nothing of the sort. It's just a different belief system.

I'm not saying it is madness. Just that it is not a position dictated or arrived at by a logical process. Having a cup of tea when you fancy one is entirely sensible. It is not logical.

Those articles of faith you mention are as much soundbites as anything. We mention free speech but you don't have to talk to people for long before you find out that an awful lot of people who profess to believe in it are quick to curb it where they identify a greater harm than its curtailment. It an ideal, a nicety, not a mission of blind faith or belief.