In London, who are the people protesting against President Trump?

[Burney]

Prejudging how an individual is likely to behave based on his race or religion is an evil, Burney, albeit a potentially necessary one as Monty says.

I don't believe for a second you can't see the downside to it.

No-one is pre-judging. We are merely talking about weighing the balance of probabilities in order to narrow the search, not waste time and give one the best possible chance of stopping crime in the shortest time possible. Because stopping crime is good, you see?
If there's a rape case, I'm not going to waste my time DNA testing female subjects or gay men. Equally, if I've got intelligence of an Islamic terror plot, I'm not going to waste my time questioning the Chinese community. Nothing 'evil' about that.

[World's End Stella]

No-one is pre-judging. We are merely talking about weighing the balance of probabilities in order to narrow the search, not waste time and give one the best possible chance of stopping crime in the shortest time possible. Because stopping crime is good, you see?
If there's a rape case, I'm not going to waste my time DNA testing female subjects or gay men. Equally, if I've got intelligence of an Islamic terror plot, I'm not going to waste my time questioning the Chinese community. Nothing 'evil' about that.

We will leave people feeling pre-judged, though. And we shouldn't under-estimate the downside of this, Burney. Stigmatising a cross-section of our society and leaving them feeling alienated is really not a good thing.

Sometimes unavoidable, I agree, my point is only that we need to be sensitive in this regard.

[Burney]

We will leave people feeling pre-judged, though. And we shouldn't under-estimate the downside of this, Burney. Stigmatising a cross-section of our society and leaving them feeling alienated is really not a good thing.

Sometimes unavoidable, I agree, my point is only that we need to be sensitive in this regard.

Sensitivity is fine, but it goes out of the window when there are potentially lives at stake, I'm afraid. Anyone who can't see that is already fûcked in the head.

To adapt your earlier example to a more precise analogy, would I feel stigmatised as a man if I were asked to rule myself out of a rape enquiry and then asked to keep a look out for a potential rapist in my neighbourhood and report any suspects? Of course not, as I'm not a rapist.
Equally, the only people likely to feel stigmatised as potential terrorists are to my mind ALREADY suspicious to the point of being potential terrorists by virtue of feeling that way. If they weren't potential terrorists, it wouldn't occur to them to feel resentment, since they'd see the logic of the approach and bow to the greater good.

[World's End Stella]

Sensitivity is fine, but it goes out of the window when there are potentially lives at stake, I'm afraid. Anyone who can't see that is already fûcked in the head.

To adapt your earlier example to a more precise analogy, would I feel stigmatised as a man if I were asked to rule myself out of a rape enquiry and then asked to keep a look out for a potential rapist in my neighbourhood and report any suspects? Of course not, as I'm not a rapist.
Equally, the only people likely to feel stigmatised as potential terrorists are to my mind ALREADY suspicious to the point of being potential terrorists by virtue of feeling that way. If they weren't potential terrorists, it wouldn't occur to them to feel resentment, since they'd see the logic of the approach and bow to the greater good.

Not sure if it ever made it over here, but when I worked in Toronto in the early 90s feminists asked all men to wear pink ribbons on their suit jackets as a demonstration of their support for the elimination of violence committed by men against women.

I refused to participate for obvious reasons. I see very little difference between that and plastering anti-terrorism posters all over predominantly Muslim areas, as an example.

[Monty92]

Not sure if it ever made it over here, but when I worked in Toronto in the early 90s feminists asked all men to wear pink ribbons on their suit jackets as a demonstration of their support for the elimination of violence committed by men against women.

I refused to participate for obvious reasons. I see very little difference between that and plastering anti-terrorism posters all over predominantly Muslim areas, as an example.

You are literally all over the place on this issue, Jeff. Almost as if you've never actually really thought about it before and are typing on the fly.

[World's End Stella]

You are literally all over the place on this issue, Jeff. Almost as if you've never actually really thought about it before and are typing on the fly.

Um, no, I'm not. I've been completely consistent, thanks.

[Burney]

Not sure if it ever made it over here, but when I worked in Toronto in the early 90s feminists asked all men to wear pink ribbons on their suit jackets as a demonstration of their support for the elimination of violence committed by men against women.

I refused to participate for obvious reasons. I see very little difference between that and plastering anti-terrorism posters all over predominantly Muslim areas, as an example.

You're comparing an empty gesture to a practical measure, though. Would I wear a pink ribbon? No. Would I do everything in my power to ensure an actual or potential rapist was stopped? Absolutely. Would I feel that the existence of a rapist stigmatised me as a man? Absolutely not.
I'm afraid that, as I've said, in the analogous situation, the same cannot be said about muslims, radicalisation and terror.

[World's End Stella]

You're comparing an empty gesture to a practical measure, though. Would I wear a pink ribbon? No. Would I do everything in my power to ensure an actual or potential rapist was stopped? Absolutely. Would I feel that the existence of a rapist stigmatised me as a man? Absolutely not.
I'm afraid that, as I've said, in the analogous situation, the same cannot be said about muslims, radicalisation and terror.

Yes, but the concept is the same. Identifying a cross section of our society and publicly focusing on them as needing to be part of the solution to a problem will necessarily stigmatise that cross-section of our society.

And as I've said, I'm not completely opposed to it, I just think it's a measure of last resort and we need to be very careful with that approach.

[Monty92]

Sensitivity is fine, but it goes out of the window when there are potentially lives at stake, I'm afraid. Anyone who can't see that is already fûcked in the head.

To adapt your earlier example to a more precise analogy, would I feel stigmatised as a man if I were asked to rule myself out of a rape enquiry and then asked to keep a look out for a potential rapist in my neighbourhood and report any suspects? Of course not, as I'm not a rapist.
Equally, the only people likely to feel stigmatised as potential terrorists are to my mind ALREADY suspicious to the point of being potential terrorists by virtue of feeling that way. If they weren't potential terrorists, it wouldn't occur to them to feel resentment, since they'd see the logic of the approach and bow to the greater good.

I don't agree with your final paragraph as we know that a sense of victimhood is ingrained in many peaceful, law-abiding muslims, just as it is many black people and women. And so stigmatisation does not necessarily point to guilt.

[Burney]

I don't agree with your final paragraph as we know that a sense of victimhood is ingrained in many peaceful, law-abiding muslims, just as it is many black people and women. And so stigmatisation does not necessarily point to guilt.

My point is that, if your priorities are already so fûcked that you take it personally that a terrorism enquiry targets your ethnic and religious group because the perpetrators are 99.999999% likely to be from your ethnic or religious group, the problem is already there and all the 'sensitivity' in the world isn't going to shift it.