We're not a bad lot really, are we?

[Burney]

I have been saying for nearly 20 years that the old notions of left and right are not applicable as they were, and that the current establishment is not the establishment of old. When what considers itself the Left lines up behind the IMF, World Bank, CBI, plus every capitalist and financial institution going, and siding with the leaderships of the three main parties, 80% of MPs, almost all the newspapers and the entire 'luvvie' celebrity class, and against what they consider to be "the mob", you know we are living in Interesting Times.

Yes. I was musing yesterday that we may be moving into a post-democratic era where people view convenience, wealth and comfort as being vastly more important than something as abstract as democracy. During the referendum, I lost count of the number of people to whom I outlined my objections to the undemocratic nature of the EU only for them to largely agree, but say 'Yes, but it doesn't really matter, does it?' (or words to that effect). They care more about cheap flights and weekend city breaks than they do about fundamental principles of government and the EU it seems to me, is largely predicated on the idea that if you keep the middle classes happy, they'll stop caring about democracy*. They seem largely to be right.

*Until such time as something happens they don't like and they wake up to the fact that there's **** all they can do about it, of course.

[Ash]

Yes. I was musing yesterday that we may be moving into a post-democratic era where people view convenience, wealth and comfort as being vastly more important than something as abstract as democracy. During the referendum, I lost count of the number of people to whom I outlined my objections to the undemocratic nature of the EU only for them to largely agree, but say 'Yes, but it doesn't really matter, does it?' (or words to that effect). They care more about cheap flights and weekend city breaks than they do about fundamental principles of government and the EU it seems to me, is largely predicated on the idea that if you keep the middle classes happy, they'll stop caring about democracy*. They seem largely to be right.

*Until such time as something happens they don't like and they wake up to the fact that there's **** all they can do about it, of course.

Do these people remember the Berlin Wall? Perhaps those of us who do value democracy more. I have been keeping my head down at work but soon the next person who ways they want this overturned might hear a little word or two about Chartists and Suffragettes.

[Burney]

Do these people remember the Berlin Wall? Perhaps those of us who do value democracy more. I have been keeping my head down at work but soon the next person who ways they want this overturned might hear a little word or two about Chartists and Suffragettes.

Ironically, although many of those who voted to Remain are among the first to moan about globalisation and neoliberal capitalism, they are in many cases its beneficiaries and - by voting Remain - were voting to support it.

[redgunamo]

Do these people remember the Berlin Wall? Perhaps those of us who do value democracy more. I have been keeping my head down at work but soon the next person who ways they want this overturned might hear a little word or two about Chartists and Suffragettes.

Yeah, but the Germans (from either side really, but especially the west) would never have voted in favour of re-unification. Ossies are thick, lazy, spoilt *******s, according to them. Hardly German at all, and so they've had to foot the bill for the whole fiasco.

[Burney]

Yeah, but the Germans (from either side really, but especially the west) would never have voted in favour of re-unification. Ossies are thick, lazy, spoilt *******s, according to them. Hardly German at all, and so they've had to foot the bill for the whole fiasco.

When talking to Eastern Europeans of my acquaintance about my reasons for voting Leave, they struggle to grasp why I find the EU insufficiently democratic. But then, as I've pointed out, many of them were born under communism, so their expectations of what constitutes democracy are pretty ****ing low.

[redgunamo]

When talking to Eastern Europeans of my acquaintance about my reasons for voting Leave, they struggle to grasp why I find the EU insufficiently democratic. But then, as I've pointed out, many of them were born under communism, so their expectations of what constitutes democracy are pretty ****ing low.

Right. And frightening too, all that personal responsibility.

See, it's not just about voting, is it. It's about having control over your own life and dealing with the consequences of your own decisions. They are simply not used to this and it terrifies them.

They think we're all terribly brave

Which, I suppose, we *are*

[Burney]

Right. And frightening too, all that personal responsibility.

See, it's not just about voting, is it. It's about having control over your own life and dealing with the consequences of your own decisions. They are simply not used to this and it terrifies them.

They think we're all terribly brave

Which, I suppose, we *are*

We're quite pig-headed, I suppose. Which amounts to the same thing, when push comes to shove.

[Ash]

See, it's not just about voting, is it. It's about having control over your own life and dealing with the consequences of your own decisions. They are simply not used to this and it terrifies them.

This is the advantage of voting for the losing side in elections and things. You get to bitch and moan and blame other peope if anything goes wrong.

[redgunamo]

This is the advantage of voting for the losing side in elections and things. You get to bitch and moan and blame other peope if anything goes wrong.

No, you don't, A. Loyal opposition and a' that.

You shake hands, say Well Played and then invite the winner for a pint. There *is* no losing side; we're all on the *same* side.

Behaving like an abandoned wife does no good at all.

[redgunamo]

Yes. I was musing yesterday that we may be moving into a post-democratic era where people view convenience, wealth and comfort as being vastly more important than something as abstract as democracy. During the referendum, I lost count of the number of people to whom I outlined my objections to the undemocratic nature of the EU only for them to largely agree, but say 'Yes, but it doesn't really matter, does it?' (or words to that effect). They care more about cheap flights and weekend city breaks than they do about fundamental principles of government and the EU it seems to me, is largely predicated on the idea that if you keep the middle classes happy, they'll stop caring about democracy*. They seem largely to be right.

*Until such time as something happens they don't like and they wake up to the fact that there's **** all they can do about it, of course.

That time has already come, I'm afraid. People handed over sovereignty over their own lives to the companies that employ them to the point that beggared their future prospects, while their firms have made hay through globalisation.

Somehow people forgot the difference between work, or working, and actually, simply, just making money. And, for decades now, have voted and acted accordingly.

I suppose it's what Jorge was on about when he claimed the middle classes have been taking it in the arse for decades. Thing is though, they've actually done it to themselves