Something vaguely interesting in the wake of recent terrorist attacks.

[redgunamo]

It's the lack of will that's the problem. We Europeans live in self-negating societies where it has become unacceptable to acknowledge the value and superiority of our culture even as the rest of the world tacitly acknowledge those superiorities by flocking here in their millions from their benighted shītholes.

Even when we fight wars, we fight them for the wrong reasons, in the wrong places and against the wrong people because we're too scared to be honest about what we're trying to achieve. Or - which is worse - we're not really sure ourselves.

Right. That's why I blame your sort, claiming to be half Irish, or whatever. It's essentially the rudiments of multi-culturalism and it just encourages all the nonsense.

Surely you are aware that Europeans, for example, believe that the Scots, the Welsh and, yes, the Irish, act as some kind of civilising influence on the English. As though being English is something to be ashamed of. Seriously.

[Monty92]

This is the other thing: it has become almost impossible for yer modern, secular, liberal intellectual to comprehend the idea of all-encompassing faith that directs one's actions. The idea of someone actually believing in things live heaven, hell and 72 houris is too much for the modern mind. Which is odd, since mankind has been convinced of such things far longer in historical terms than he hasn't.

It's a failure of empathy. Without understanding that these *****s ACTUALLY MEAN THIS ****, you can't begin to tackle the problem.

Exactly. Once you allow yourself to accept that these fellas actually believe they are assuring themselves a fast-track ticket to paradise, it is no longer such a mystery and you are far less inclined to write them off as mentally ill.

Or at least no more mentally ill than someone who believes in horoscopes, anyway.

[Burney]

Exactly. Once you allow yourself to accept that these fellas actually believe they are assuring themselves a fast-track ticket to paradise, it is no longer such a mystery and you are far less inclined to write them off as mentally ill.

Or at least no more mentally ill than believing in horoscopes, anyway.

You can go on YouTube and see parents sincerely celebrating the 'martyrdom' of their child. In 'The Looming Tower' you can read about Mujahideen in Afghanistan standing enviously over the mangled corpse of their comrade because he's off in Paradise while they're still on shītty old earth.

These things are real, they're alarmingly common and to call them 'mad' is true only in the most glib sense, since this is a 'madness' that has afflicted mankind for most of its history.

[redgunamo]

This is the other thing: it has become almost impossible for yer modern, secular, liberal intellectual to comprehend the idea of all-encompassing faith that directs one's actions. The idea of someone actually believing in things like heaven, hell and 72 houris is too much for the modern mind. Which is odd, since mankind has been convinced of such things far longer in historical terms than he hasn't.

It's a failure of empathy. Without understanding that these *****s ACTUALLY MEAN THIS ****, you can't begin to tackle the problem.

We are not fighting so that you will offer us something; we are fighting to eliminate you, as the man said. I don't believe that either but it is certainly what I would say, in his shoes; more donations and better sympathy and support that way.

Think of it as a teenager's temper tantrum.

[Monty92]

You can go on YouTube and see parents sincerely celebrating the 'martyrdom' of their child. In 'The Looming Tower' you can read about Mujahideen in Afghanistan standing enviously over the mangled corpse of their comrade because he's off in Paradise while they're still on shītty old earth.

These things are real, they're alarmingly common and to call them 'mad' is true only in the most glib sense, since this is a 'madness' has afflicted mankind for most of its history.

Yet according to Peter, parents celebrating the martyrdom of their child are merely a product of their environment, and if religion is a factor in their behaviour it is certainly not a primary one.

Ditto a man stoning his own daughter to death in Afghanistan.

But a man who blows up a pop concert in Manchester....must be a mental.

[Ash]

We've been involved in real wars abroad lately with hundreds of thousands of casualties and everyone was happy to leave us standing there with just our cocks in our hands (as the man said), but now a few disco dancers and shoppers get done in and everyone's up on their hind legs.

But as you always say, no-one cares about them over there dying, as long as we don't have to look at it on the news. And tbf we have been up on our hind legs for a good few million years now.

[Burney]

Right. That's why I blame your sort, claiming to be half Irish, or whatever. It's essentially the rudiments of multi-culturalism and it just encourages all the nonsense.

Surely you are aware that Europeans, for example, believe that the Scots, the Welsh and, yes, the Irish, act as some kind of civilising influence on the English. As though being English is something to be ashamed of. Seriously.

I've never said I'm half-Irish. I'm an Englishman of Irish extraction who supports the England cricket team, the Irish rugby team and doesn't care about the England football team. These are not inherently contradictory positions, since none of these things compromises my inherent loyalty to Queen and Country.

Britain has been a vaguely coherent mish-mash of four different countries (well, three and Wales) as long as it has existed. Irishness, Scottishness and Welshness are as much parts of the British identity as Englishness, so anomalies such as me are bound to result from such a loose arrangement. That's quite different to multi-cultural nonsense.

[Peter]

I am happy to do exactly the same and never said otherwise.

Actually the original point was whether terrorists are mentally ill. You seem to be saying they must be because they can't possibly believe all that rubbish and be prepared to kill for it. I then asked you if you feel the same about states that kill gays and apostates. You said that's different because state sanctioned executions are not murder and anyway these laws are only in place because of geopolitics turning religion bad.

I then asked you about why western terrorists who have lived/visited such societies are mentally ill and not simply a product of their environment too. I also asked about muslim honour killings and muslim gang rapes in the UK and which category these fit in. I also asked about fathers who stone their own daughters to death and whether they are mentally ill or a product of their environment. Any chance of a response?

This is why the two of us cannot have a conversation. You insist on summarising and contorting what I say and then forcing us down that path.

It was actually Burney that said there was a big crossover between this behaviour and mental illness. I was making jokes about the IRA have to use payphones.

In my first response to you I talked about interpretations of Islam and other religions and the effect these interpretations can have on people exposed to them from a young age.

I did NOT say whether I thought state execution was murder. I simply pointed out that it was incorrect to say that our (western) moral code universally held this belief. Again, putting words in my mouth.

Nor did I say that geopolitics turned religion bad. Nothing of the sort. My point was that geopolitics has thrown light on religion in the rest of the world but not here and that geopolitics is therefore as big an explanation as Islam itself as to why these parts of the world have seen no enlightenment, no modernisation in their view of religion.

I told you at the start that I was not serious regarding mental illness. I have explained this several time. I won’t again.

My point, from the start, was that I blamed an interpretation of Islam rather than Islam per se. We have been over this again and again and I have stuck with the point. I am still sticking with it. If you wish to make a big deal surrounding mental illness I suggest you continue your conversation with Burney.

If you wish to discuss the issue surrounding interpretations of Islam I am happy to continue, even at the risk of being labelled smug or an apologist.

[Peter]

Yet according to Peter, parents celebrating the martyrdom of their child are merely a product of their environment, and if religion is a factor in their behaviour it is certainly not a primary one.

Ditto a man stoning his own daughter to death in Afghanistan.

But a man who blows up a pop concert in Manchester....must be a mental.

See... a minute ago I apparently refused to answer these questions yet now you magically have my answer.

[Peter]

You can go on YouTube and see parents sincerely celebrating the 'martyrdom' of their child. In 'The Looming Tower' you can read about Mujahideen in Afghanistan standing enviously over the mangled corpse of their comrade because he's off in Paradise while they're still on shītty old earth.

These things are real, they're alarmingly common and to call them 'mad' is true only in the most glib sense, since this is a 'madness' has afflicted mankind for most of its history.

So.... what happened to your Venn diagram then?