Speaking of getting slaughtered, I went to the bull fighting in Sevilla on Saturday

[Sir C]

I would agree that yes, we have moved on. I just don't think 'wrong in the head' is a helpful definition.
For instance, slavery has been a fact of human history for a lot longer than it hasn't and obviously I now find the idea abhorrent. However, I fight shy of moral judgement of those who grew up in very different times and circumstances and so do not subscribe to the automatic belief that slave traders were inherently evil because of what they did, preferring to try and see them in the context of their times.
Equally, do I think that Spaniards are inherently evil for enjoying bullfighting? No. I just think they're a bit ethically and culturally retarded to still do that sort of thing in the modern world. We are all products of our societies and cultures and to me, the love of bullfighting tells me that Spanish society and culture is a bit wrong.

You can dress it up all you like, but if you spend an afternoon enjoying watching an animal being tortured, you're one sick ****. Fact. End of. Stuff like that.

[Burney]

You can dress it up all you like, but if you spend an afternoon enjoying watching an animal being tortured, you're one sick ****. Fact. End of. Stuff like that.

OK. But I would argue that being a sick fûck is a normal human trait. Not being one is quite unusual.

[Sir C]

OK. But I would argue that being a sick fûck is a normal human trait. Not being one is quite unusual.

If that were the case, we wouldn't be surprised and revolted by Gary Glitter or Jimmy Savile; we'd accept their behaviour as it would be that of the majority

[Pokster]

OK. But I would argue that being a sick fûck is a normal human trait. Not being one is quite unusual.

Is it OK for an animal to be tortured then eaten, or just sick to watch it? I'm confused here

[Burney]

If that were the case, we wouldn't be surprised and revolted by Gary Glitter or Jimmy Savile; we'd accept their behaviour as it would be that of the majority

That's to suppose that different mores don't apply to different transgressions at different times and places. It was only a couple of decades ago that an older man having sex with underage girls was basically seen as a harmless peccadillo - which is part of the reason Savile got away with it for so long. We lived in a society where the sexy schoolgirl was a pretty mainstream male fantasy. Was that a good thing? No. But it was how society was. Now, of course, such things make for very uncomfortable viewing.

[Burney]

Is it OK for an animal to be tortured then eaten, or just sick to watch it? I'm confused here

Neither is OK. Hope that clears things up for you.

[World's End Stella]

I think when something is taking place in what is (nominally, at least) a modern, civilised, developed nation that has had all the benefits of the Enlightenment, it becomes valid to judge it by those standards. Maybe one can cut savages some slack because...well...they're savages, but if people want to tell me they are civilised, I will judge them by those standards.
Also, the issue is not so much the fact of the animal's suffering as the crowd's conscious decision to revel in that suffering. It is that I find disgusting.

Also, it's 'Coup de grâce', btw. What you wrote means 'blow of fat'.

How do you know if the crowd revels in the bull's suffering if you have never been? You see, this is one of the reasons I went, a desire to experience and understand it better.

In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. One of the things that the crowd seemed to appreciate was the skill used to dispatch the bull quickly and as painlessly as possible. The matador for the second bull seemed to be struggling to finish the bull off and the more he struggled the more the crowd seemed to object. It was the football equivalent of the Emirates when Ramsey gives the ball away, yet again.

Having been to see it, I think the moral argument against it is very dubious.

[Sir C]

How do you know if the crowd revels in the bull's suffering if you have never been? You see, this is one of the reasons I went, a desire to experience and understand it better.

In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. One of the things that the crowd seemed to appreciate was the skill used to dispatch the bull quickly and as painlessly as possible. The matador for the second bull seemed to be struggling to finish the bull off and the more he struggled the more the crowd seemed to object. It was the football equivalent of the Emirates when Ramsey gives the ball away, yet again.

Having been to see it, I think the moral argument against it is very dubious.

I've been to a bullfight, so I know you are talking utter codswallop.

Don't let that stop you.

[Burney]

How do you know if the crowd revels in the bull's suffering if you have never been? You see, this is one of the reasons I went, a desire to experience and understand it better.

In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. One of the things that the crowd seemed to appreciate was the skill used to dispatch the bull quickly and as painlessly as possible. The matador for the second bull seemed to be struggling to finish the bull off and the more he struggled the more the crowd seemed to object. It was the football equivalent of the Emirates when Ramsey gives the ball away, yet again.

Having been to see it, I think the moral argument against it is very dubious.

So, once the poor thing has been chased ragged, used as a pincushion, suffered sufficient blood loss and had its neck muscles weakened to the point that it can barely lift its head, they appreciate it if it is quickly dispatched from its pain and terror?

How very humane of them.

Do fûck off and try not to be so cretinous.

[World's End Stella]

So, once the poor thing has been chased ragged, used as a pincushion, suffered sufficient blood loss and had its neck muscles weakened to the point that it can barely lift its head, they appreciate it if it is quickly dispatched from its pain and terror?

How very humane of them.

Do fûck off and try not to be so cretinous.

The bull isn't chased, the bull chases. It is stabbed 6 times if all goes according to plan, although the blood loss isn't sufficient to noticeably disable it, it still seems to be very active and aware. I never noticed any of the bulls being unable to lift their heads, the only difference between the bulls prior to being killed and entering the ring was that they had become very tired from chasing the matadors and the other chaps around.

Did the bull suffer more than the geese or ducks that are force fed and have their livers moved outside of their bodies so that you can enjoy foie gras? I don't think so, at least it isn't immediately obvious to me that they did.

Do f*ck off and try not to be so sanctimonious about something you seem to know very little about.