Meanwhile, over at The Guardian, vicious arguments between 'Remainers' and

[Sir C]

I briefly listened to a radio discussion on this last week.

I think (though I missed her) Katie Hopkins was on saying leave, then George Galloway was on saying leave, which put him on the same side as Boris Johnson. Jeremy Corbyn in public is saying stay but Galloway said he is a liar as in private he is saying leave.

In summary no person really appeared to know anything absolute, simply rumours of doom and/or wanting to reclaim sovereign powers.

Eventually I grew weary of the debate so put on the Amorphous Androgynous.

Katie Hopkins and George Galloway? Good Lord. I don't envy you being subjected to that pair of maniacs, however brief the period.

[The Jorge]

Rubbish, j. You have to admit that the hysteria from Remain has been pitched at an intensity that is genuinely absurd.

The pitch might be a bit high but they do have comparitively rock-solid evidence, most of the leave camp's stuff seems to be around an agenda of economic liberalisation where "freedom" means people losing almost all of their rights.

Also, the leave camp are flat out lying about things like Turkey.

[redgunamo]

I'm sort of fatalistic about it now, as I don't think the way I'll vote will win - which I think is a pity - but I'm increasingly convinced that the whole project is unsustainable anyway. It's going to collapse under its own weight, it's just a question of when.

Look at France at the moment, for instance. You've got a socialist government having to use water cannon to impose vaguely sane labour laws that actually make it worthwhile employing people in the face of increasingly militant unions. All of that is grist to the Front National's mill and they want out even more than UKIP. It's long been my belief that France will be the country that breaks the EU, since its sense of exceptionalism simply won't stand for having to compromise or kowtow to others. France either has to be at the head of the EU or it will be opposed to it.

Oh, right. I did wonder what all the fuss was about.

[redgunamo]

The pitch might be a bit high but they do have comparitively rock-solid evidence, most of the leave camp's stuff seems to be around an agenda of economic liberalisation where "freedom" means people losing almost all of their rights.

Also, the leave camp are flat out lying about things like Turkey.

Can the UK stop Turkey joining the EU?

[The Jorge]

Can the UK stop Turkey joining the EU?

Yes, they have a Veto, as do each of the other countries in the EU.

[Burney]

The pitch might be a bit high but they do have comparitively rock-solid evidence, most of the leave camp's stuff seems to be around an agenda of economic liberalisation where "freedom" means people losing almost all of their rights.

Also, the leave camp are flat out lying about things like Turkey.

Their evidence is very far from rock solid and you know it. The Leave arguments over sovereignty and the EU on the other hand, are unanswerable. If you don't give a **** about sovereignty, then fine, but you can't deny it is compromised and undermined by our membership of the EU. It's just a fact.

And how do you know they're lying about Turkey? The EU desperately needs Turkey to control the immigration problem right now and you can bet your arse that Turkey's long-term price for that is EU membership just as surely as its short-term price is de facto freedom of movement within the EU for its citizens.

[Burney]

Yes, they have a Veto, as do each of the other countries in the EU.

Having a veto and being able to use it are very different things.

[Burney]

Oh, right. I did wonder what all the fuss was about.

Kicked off at an oil terminal in Marseilles yesterday, I believe.

[The Jorge]

Having a veto and being able to use it are very different things.

Right talk me through that one.

[redgunamo]

Having a veto and being able to use it are very different things.

Angie can be most persuasive, when she wants to be. And the whole world knows there's no sense differing with a German woman once she's bent on persuading you of something