I will never get my head around the 2nd amendment and Americans utter refusal

[Peter]

Nothing to be done about that; it's in their genes. After all, that particular nation was mostly founded on condemned criminals, violent religious fanatics and ne'er-do-wells and misfits and madmen who'd failed to fit in and/or been thrown out of other, more civilised countries; often just before being hanged for some insignificant wrongdoing or other.

All things considered, the law does work pretty well. It is, as you point out, proper crazies doing most of the the mass-shooting, with criminal street-gangs making up the rest. Their normal, ordinary law-abiding citizens behave the same as normal, ordinary law-abiding citizens behave everywhere else. And it's not as though the world is running out of Americans, is it. Apparently there's three-hundert fiddy million of the buggers nowadays and millions more pouring in all the time.

Good luck to them.

They have a very strained relationship with the word 'freedom'..... I would start there.

The card-carrying (no pun intended) religious fanatics are a huge political lobby in a country founded on the principle of the separation of church and state.

[WES]

They have a very strained relationship with the word 'freedom'..... I would start there.

The card-carrying (no pun intended) religious fanatics are a huge political lobby in a country founded on the principle of the separation of church and state.

America is quite unique in its approach to democracy, I think. Most countries rammed with power hungry politicians eventually end up in a quasi dictatorship with democracy really only convenient label to keep people happy.

In America, they are utterly committed to democracy but the politicians are so desperate for power that the idea of doing what is right or wrong has been completely replaced by doing what will get you elected.

This explains both the lack of any sensible gun control and Donald Trump's destruction of the Republican party imo.

[Peter]

America is quite unique in its approach to democracy, I think. Most countries rammed with power hungry politicians eventually end up in a quasi dictatorship with democracy really only convenient label to keep people happy.

In America, they are utterly committed to democracy but the politicians are so desperate for power that the idea of doing what is right or wrong has been completely replaced by doing what will get you elected.

This explains both the lack of any sensible gun control and Donald Trump's destruction of the Republican party imo.

I think they just talk about it more, they don't actually do it any better. This is a country that can barely hold a Presidential election and confirm a winner.

They are a great example of how a written constitution can be a hostage to fortune.

Surely in a democracy doing what is right or wrong and doing what will get you elected are the same thing? Vox Populi, Vox Dei, and all that

[WES]

Surely in a democracy doing what is right or wrong and doing what will get you elected are the same thing? Vox Populi, Vox Dei, and all that

Stop being silly, Peter

[Peter]

Stop being silly, Peter

Who is to judge right and wrong if not the voters?

[WES]

Who is to judge right and wrong if not the voters?

Well it isn't that simple though, is it? Take the example of American policy towards Cuba. The large Cuban American population in Florida makes that vote very important if you want to win the state, and there are many who think you need Florida to win the Presidency. History shows this is largely true. So no sensible Presidential candidate pushes back on the absurd American foreign policy towards Cuba which has negatively affected millions of innocent people through embargos, political isolation etc.

It's wrong, but it gets you elected. Because of the flaw in democracy, or at least American democracy

[Peter]

Well it isn't that simple though, is it? Take the example of American policy towards Cuba. The large Cuban American population in Florida makes that vote very important if you want to win the state, and there are many who think you need Florida to win the Presidency. History shows this is largely true. So no sensible Presidential candidate pushes back on the absurd American foreign policy towards Cuba which has negatively affected millions of innocent people through embargos, political isolation etc.

It's wrong, but it gets you elected. Because of the flaw in democracy, or at least American democracy

Right- so to win Florida you need to appeal to the voters in Florida.

And on the subject of simplicity, do you honestly believe that US policy to Cuba is a de facto matter of right and wrong? A simple casualty of electoral 'math' and not in any way related to the american obsession with communism.

Obviously I was being flippant with my original point but there is a serious point in there. With Brexit and Trump we saw how reluctant people are to accept a democratic defeat.

[WES]

I think they just talk about it more, they don't actually do it any better. This is a country that can barely hold a Presidential election and confirm a winner.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, Peter. They held an election and ran it efficiently and honestly and the winner was clear.

The flaw was the fact that one of the candidates was so reprehensible that he couldn't accept the result. Whether this is a flaw in American democracy or democracy generally is a matter for debate.

[Peter]

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, Peter. They held an election and ran it efficiently and honestly and the winner was clear.

The flaw was the fact that one of the candidates was so reprehensible that he couldn't accept the result. Whether this is a flaw in American democracy or democracy generally is a matter for debate.

No, I didn't mean that one. I meant the Bush election with the whole '**** knows who won Florida' business.

Their elections are a mess.

[redgunamo]

Stay tuned. It'll all come out in the wash!

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, Peter. They held an election and ran it efficiently and honestly and the winner was clear.

The flaw was the fact that one of the candidates was so reprehensible that he couldn't accept the result. Whether this is a flaw in American democracy or democracy generally is a matter for debate.