I wonder if the blame for the patchy home form is going to be put squarely on

the home supporters?

I know Monty will but I wonder whether anyone of any significance will?

Blame? No.A contributor? Yes.

I concur, Curly sir.

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Originally Posted by TheCurly

Blame? No.A contributor? Yes.

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Yes, it's unlikely to have helped, is it?

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Originally Posted by Sir C

Yes, it's unlikely to have helped, is it?

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I do find people work much harder if you berrate them though

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Originally Posted by The Jorge

I do find people work much harder if you berrate them though

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Oh, certainly. It has been scientifically proven that athletes, when pushed close to their limits of effort, both physical and mental, receive a 10% boost in energy from massed despairing groans. One might imagine that encouragement might have a better physical and psychological effect, but you would be wrong.

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Originally Posted by The Jorge

I do find people work much harder if you berrate them though

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I find the opposite.Berrating someone leads to them fear of making a mistake.Encouragement,gentle encouragement,praise,*******ING,praise,encourageme nt imo

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Originally Posted by TheCurly

I find the opposite.Berrating someone leads to them fear of making a mistake.Encouragement,gentle encouragement,praise,*******ING,praise,encourageme nt imo

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Ah the old **** sandwich approach.

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Originally Posted by Sir C

Oh, certainly. It has been scientifically proven that athletes, when pushed close to their limits of effort, both physical and mental, receive a 10% boost in energy from massed despairing groans. One might imagine that encouragement might have a better physical and psychological effect, but you would be wrong.

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It's not as if you can use the bloody lash anymore is it? Rum and sodomy both seem rife though

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Originally Posted by Alberto Balsam Rodriguez

the home supporters?

I know Monty will but I wonder whether anyone of any significance will?

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I don't know where you work, but on those occasions when - as we humans are wont to do - you make a misstep or minor error, do you think that having 50,000 people groaning, calling you a **** and holding up banners demanding that your boss be sacked would help your frame of mind? Or would you perhaps be a teensy bit demotivated, do you think?

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Originally Posted by Burney

I don't know where you work, but on those occasions when - as we humans are wont to do - you make a misstep or minor error, do you think that having 50,000 people groaning, calling you a **** and holding up banners demanding that your boss be sacked would help your frame of mind? Or would you perhaps be a teensy bit demotivated, do you think?

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Having the referee smuggled out of the ground in the boot of a car due to the intense intimidation would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Burney

I don't know where you work, but on those occasions when - as we humans are wont to do - you make a misstep or minor error, do you think that having 50,000 people groaning, calling you a **** and holding up banners demanding that your boss be sacked would help your frame of mind? Or would you perhaps be a teensy bit demotivated, do you think?

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Anyone can perform on a good day; the difference with professionals is that they can still perform even on bad days. As a great man once said.

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Originally Posted by reg

Anyone can perform on a good day; the difference with professionals is that they can still perform even on bad days. As a great man once said.

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Let's not bring the blessed Bodie and Doyle into this, r.

But seriously, that isn't the point. The point is that fans who claim to love the club regularly seek to undermine the morale of the players and manager and then wash their hands of it and say 'nothing to do with me, guv' when called on it.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Let's not bring the blessed Bodie and Doyle into this, r.

But seriously, that isn't the point. The point is that fans who claim to love the club regularly seek to undermine the morale of the players and manager and then wash their hands of it and say 'nothing to do with me, guv' when called on it.

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Ah, I remember now; it was Richie Richardson, when it was once put to him that it seemed the forecasted conditions for a particular test match would not help his bowlers.

Anyway, it is precisely the point; the fans, and indeed, the players' morale, would be fine if we were five points clear. Blaming the supporters for our performances is merely a crude McGuffin.

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Originally Posted by Burney

I don't know where you work, but on those occasions when - as we humans are wont to do - you make a misstep or minor error, do you think that having 50,000 people groaning, calling you a **** and holding up banners demanding that your boss be sacked would help your frame of mind? Or would you perhaps be a teensy bit demotivated, do you think?

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And none of us are paid millions and millions of pounds a year to do our job. And when we do our job properly we don't have 50,000 people cheering and whooping and singing our name and adoring us.

And 50,000 people aren't holding up banners. About three or four people are. And groaning is a natural response. If you don't want groaning then play behind closed doors. Atletico fans were groaning at mis-placed passes, at three points from the top of the table. Newcastle fans were groaning at their team who played pretty well to get a point against City last night.

If as a player you can't cope with some flak when you fail to do your job properly then get another job. One which doesn't have the riches and the responsibilities.

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Originally Posted by Ash

And none of us are paid millions and millions of pounds a year to do our job. And when we do our job properly we don't have 50,000 people cheering and whooping and singing our name and adoring us.

And 50,000 people aren't holding up banners. About three or four people are. And groaning is a natural response. If you don't want groaning then play behind closed doors. Atletico fans were groaning at mis-placed passes, at three points from the top of the table. Newcastle fans were groaning at their team who played pretty well to get a point against City last night.

If as a player you can't cope with some flak when you fail to do your job properly then get another job. One which doesn't have the riches and the responsibilities.

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So, in short, these supporters are helping or hindering our cause, would you say?

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Originally Posted by Ash

And none of us are paid millions and millions of pounds a year to do our job. And when we do our job properly we don't have 50,000 people cheering and whooping and singing our name and adoring us.

And 50,000 people aren't holding up banners. About three or four people are. And groaning is a natural response. If you don't want groaning then play behind closed doors. Atletico fans were groaning at mis-placed passes, at three points from the top of the table. Newcastle fans were groaning at their team who played pretty well to get a point against City last night.

If as a player you can't cope with some flak when you fail to do your job properly then get another job. One which doesn't have the riches and the responsibilities.

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None of which alters the fact that the fans barracking and groaning and ****ing are undermining the morale of the team they purport to want to do well whilst behaving in a way that could almost be designed to achieve the opposite. That makes them ****ing idiots at best.

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Originally Posted by Sir C

So, in short, these supporters are helping or hindering our cause, would you say?

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They are paying for our cause. What more does anyone want :shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash

And none of us are paid millions and millions of pounds a year to do our job. And when we do our job properly we don't have 50,000 people cheering and whooping and singing our name and adoring us.

And 50,000 people aren't holding up banners. About three or four people are. And groaning is a natural response. If you don't want groaning then play behind closed doors. Atletico fans were groaning at mis-placed passes, at three points from the top of the table. Newcastle fans were groaning at their team who played pretty well to get a point against City last night.

If as a player you can't cope with some flak when you fail to do your job properly then get another job. One which doesn't have the riches and the responsibilities.

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What has money got to do with it? If my missus was undergoing the knife I'm hardly going to stand looking on boo-ing the surgeon and calling him a useless ****er.Footballers are human beings and make mistakes under pressure.Fine when it's the opposition doing it

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Originally Posted by TheCurly

What has money got to do with it? If my missus was undergoing the knife I'm hardly going to stand looking on boo-ing the surgeon and calling him a useless ****er.Footballers are human beings and make mistakes under pressure.Fine when it's the opposition doing it

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It may not be considered normal, reasonable behaviour in an operating theatre gallery. A's point, I think, is that it *is* normal, reasonable behaviour in football.

That's why players have all that mental strength, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by reg

It may not be considered normal, reasonable behaviour in an operating theatre gallery. A's point, I think, is that it *is* normal, reasonable behaviour in football.

That's why players have all that mental strength, I suppose.

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Yes,it is a fair point.But it still doesn't help.

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Originally Posted by TheCurly

But it still doesn't help.

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No, it doesn't help, that's true. But I think there is a tendancy amongst some of those who are least inclined to accept shortcomings on behalf of players and manager to make the most of the shortcomings of fans.

If only we could replace the fans everything would be all right.

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Originally Posted by Ash

No, it doesn't help, that's true. But I think there is a tendancy amongst some of those who are least inclined to accept shortcomings on behalf of players and manager to make the most of the shortcomings of fans.

If only we could replace the fans everything would be all right.

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OK, but there is an equal tendency among those fans who most vocally complain to deny that their actions may have any negative consequences for the team.

And I think David Squires' fine effort deserves a mention here.

https://thesunshineroom.com/2013/03/...llel-universe/

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Originally Posted by Burney

OK, but there is an equal tendency among those fans who most vocally complain to deny that their actions may have any negative consequences for the team.

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Right, but A has already pointed out, even decent teams get the bird sometimes. Crucially though, points are still awarded for the players' performances and results regardless.

You don't appreciate that in our haste to banter off the supporters, we risk ignoring a rather more essential aspect of the matter?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reg

Right, but A has already pointed out, even decent teams get the bird sometimes. Crucially though, points are still awarded for the players' performances and results regardless.

You don't appreciate that in our haste to banter off the supporters, we risk ignoring a rather more essential aspect of the matter?

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Correct,this is why my initial response was NOT to blame the fans for the results (ergo blaming players and management) but say the fans were a contributary factor in some results.I stand by that.

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Originally Posted by TheCurly

Correct,this is why my initial response was NOT to blame the fans for the results (ergo blaming players and management) but say the fans were a contributary factor in some results.I stand by that.

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Fair enough. But it simply makes no sense to me. We employ some of the top people in the world in each and every department of the football club, but yet we are supposed to believe that our fortunes really actually depend on what mood Claude & Co. happen to be in on a matchday.

Ridicules.

My point, if there is one, would be that it actually makes no difference either way. And the only time it's mentioned is as an excuse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reg

Fair enough. But it simply makes no sense to me. We employ some of the top people in the world in each and every department of the football club, but yet we are supposed to believe that our fortunes really actually depend on what mood Claude & Co. happen to be in on a matchday.

Ridicules.

My point, if there is one, would be that it actually makes no difference either way. And the only time it's mentioned is as an excuse.

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The logical conclusion of your argument is that whether the fans cheer or boo should make no difference to the team. Unfortunately, that runs counter to the entire logic of football, in which home support is considered to be a major advantage as it encourages our players and intimidates theirs. By the same token, a lack of support or worse at home is bound to have a negative effect on the team. There is simply no escaping this logic, I'm afraid.

However good a player is, they are still subject to human factors. They can still use home support to raise their game as they would use any other advantage. Thus, the absence of home support makes a difference.

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Originally Posted by Burney

The logical conclusion of your argument is that whether the fans cheer or boo should make no difference to the team. Unfortunately, that runs counter to the entire logic of football, in which home support is considered to be a major advantage as it encourages our players and intimidates theirs. By the same token, a lack of support or worse at home is bound to have a negative effect on the team. There is simply no escaping this logic, I'm afraid.

However good a player is, they are still subject to human factors. They can still use home support to raise their game as they would use any other advantage. Thus, the absence of home support makes a difference.

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No, I disagree. We *have* escaped your logic; we are fourth in the league, not bottom. Even at this late stage and despite everything we could still win the title.

Of course, players are human! However, professionals give up the right to use human factors as an excuse; they do their job, they win or they lose and that's it. Then they get ready for the next one. That's why they are professionals. They don't care about outside factors.

And that is true for Curly's wife's brain surgeon as it is for me and Arsene Wenger or the nice lady who's just been here to fix a minor problem with a car.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reg

No, I disagree. We *have* escaped your logic; we are fourth in the league, not bottom. Even at this late stage and despite everything we could still win the title.

Of course, players are human! However, professionals give up the right to use human factors as an excuse; they do their job, they win or they lose and that's it. Then they get ready for the next one. That's why they are professionals. They don't care about outside factors.

And that is true for Curly's wife's brain surgeon as it is for me and Arsene Wenger or the nice lady who's just been here to fix a minor problem with a car.

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We can only be said to have escaped it if you believe that this team has performed to the utmost of its ability and that fourth is the best it could have expected.

But I don't think that is your argument, is it? You believe we have underperformed and refuse to accept that the poisonous behaviour of our supporters may be any sort of factor in that underperformance on the grounds that professionals shouldn't allow the fact that the people who are supposed to be on their side are instead consistently booing them. And if you refuse to accept that, the logic dictates that you don't believe there is or should be such a thing as home advantage.

Effectively, you are arguing that among professionals, there should be no such thing as morale. You seem to think that anyone getting paid to do a job will do the job the same way regardless of human factors. I would have thought you of all people would understand the importance of morale to performance.

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Originally Posted by TheCurly

Blame? No.A contributor? Yes.

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Wasn't our home record a lot better last season?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

We can only be said to have escaped it if you believe that this team has performed to the utmost of its ability and that fourth is the best it could have expected.

But I don't think that is your argument, is it? You believe we have underperformed and refuse to accept that the poisonous behaviour of our supporters may be any sort of factor in that underperformance on the grounds that professionals shouldn't allow the fact that the people who are supposed to be on their side are instead consistently booing them. And if you refuse to accept that, the logic dictates that you don't believe there is or should be such a thing as home advantage.

Effectively, you are arguing that among professionals, there should be no such thing as morale. You seem to think that anyone getting paid to do a job will do the job the same way regardless of human factors. I would have thought you of all people would understand the importance of morale to performance.

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Regardless of expectations, we have done alright. Could've done better, could've done alot worse. Don't forget that I am firmly in the "we need to buy a fifty million pound striker" camp so my own hopes for us are always adjusted accordingly.

As I say, we can still win the title. You know, despite half the season's matches being subject to the "poisonous behaviour of our supporters". What do you imagine Leicester City's fans were like last season as they played their way towards relegation? Did they change out the whole thirty thousand of them for this term (although, I did read an amusing tale about one poor chap there who, after many years, finally allowed his wife to persuade him to give up his season ticket last Summer)?

No, getting paid and results is the most important thing. You do your job, they pay you for that and also to do it again tomorrow; no problem. That's being a professional. Morale is simply a term used when dealing with folk from outside, to be polite, if and when necessary. An excuse. It's nothing to do with the truth, but simply we supporters feel better if the players and staff at least pretend to care about how we feel, good or bad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by reg

Regardless of expectations, we have done alright. Could've done better, could've done alot worse. Don't forget that I am firmly in the "we need to buy a fifty million pound striker" camp so my own hopes for us are always adjusted accordingly.

As I say, we can still win the title. You know, despite half the season's matches being subject to the "poisonous behaviour of our supporters". What do you imagine Leicester City's fans were like last season as they played their way towards relegation? Did they change out the whole thirty thousand of them for this term (although, I did read an amusing tale about one poor chap there who, after many years, finally allowed his wife to persuade him to give up his season ticket last Summer)?

No, getting paid and results is the most important thing. You do your job, they pay you for that and also to do it again tomorrow; no problem. That's being a professional. Morale is simply a term used when dealing with folk from outside, to be polite, if and when necessary. An excuse. It's nothing to do with the truth, but simply we supporters feel better if the players and staff at least pretend to care about how we feel, good or bad.

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Give it up, dude. He's done you like a kipper here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alberto Balsam Rodriguez

Wasn't our home record a lot better last season?

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Yes.However,we were never going to win it last year.The fact we could have and not capitalised on it this year seems to have turned some supporters moaning into a lot of supporters moaning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

...refuse to accept that the poisonous behaviour of our supporters may be any sort of factor in that underperformance

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Lumping all our supporters together and calling them all poisonous is reductive and an over-statement. As an witness to events I would say that apathy and resignation are more prevalent feelings than toxicity. None of us know how much an effect the crowd has either way. 1%, 2%, 5%? Of course every bit helps, but systematically blaming the crowd with exaggerated rhetoric while the club's staff keep ****ing up their jobs seems wrong to me.

Also there is the false assumption that Arsenal are uniquely bad. It's like Jorge's hate for his country, assuming we are the worst and everyone else is better.

I don't know why I bother saying this tbh. It just goes round in circles.

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Originally Posted by Sir C

Give it up, dude. He's done you like a kipper here.

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Not at all. You can see it for yourself; would you rather get booed or go unpaid?

And if you get paid, who cares about the booing :shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash

Lumping all our supporters together and calling them all poisonous is reductive and an over-statement. As an witness to events I would say that apathy and resignation are more prevalent feelings than toxicity. None of us know how much an affect the crowd has either way. 1%, 2%, 5%? Of course every bit helps, but systematically blaming the crowd with exaggerated rhetoric while the club's staff keep ****ing up their jobs seems wrong to me.

Also there is the false assumption that Arsenal are uniquely bad. It's like Jorge's hate for his country, assuming we are the worst and everyone else is better.

I don't know why I bother saying this tbh. It just goes round in circles.

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That's my sons they're talking about :-(

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Originally Posted by reg

That's my sons they're talking about :-(

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And your hard-earned readies to pay for tickets and travel. :nod: And another thing, the sack-the-fans brigade never acknowledge the crowd when things have gone well, while fans have been heartily blasting out numbers of support such as "Good old Arsenal!" and "the greatest team the world has ever seen", which is pretty damned generous I'd have thought for a mob that aren't even the greatest team in North London any more. :-(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash

And your hard-earned readies to pay for tickets and travel. :nod: And another thing, the sack-the-fans brigade never acknowledge the crowd when things have gone well, while fans have been heartily blasting out numbers of support such as "Good old Arsenal!" and "the greatest team the world has ever seen", which is pretty damned generous I'd have thought for a mob that aren't even the greatest team in North London any more. :-(

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:indifferent:

Looks like Wenger was reading this :-|