I will never get my head around the 2nd amendment and Americans utter refusal

to see it as the reason they're the only country to constantly have mass shootings.

They'll bring up one random case where a bloke defends his house from a home invasion as sufficient reason.

This bit beggars belief - Mr Card is a trained firearms instructor at a US Army Reserve facility in Maine who was committed to a mental health facility for two weeks earlier this year. The document also said Mr Card had reported hearing voices and had threatened to carry out a shooting at the military training base in Saco, Maine.

Didn't think to perhaps remove his guns at that point!?! :rolleyes:

Nothing to be done about that; it's in their genes. After all, that particular nation was mostly founded on condemned criminals, violent religious fanatics and ne'er-do-wells and misfits and madmen who'd failed to fit in and/or been thrown out of other, more civilised countries; often just before being hanged for some insignificant wrongdoing or other.

All things considered, the law does work pretty well. It is, as you point out, proper crazies doing most of the the mass-shooting, with criminal street-gangs making up the rest. Their normal, ordinary law-abiding citizens behave the same as normal, ordinary law-abiding citizens behave everywhere else. And it's not as though the world is running out of Americans, is it. Apparently there's three-hundert fiddy million of the buggers nowadays and millions more pouring in all the time.

Good luck to them.

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Originally Posted by PSRB

to see it as the reason they're the only country to constantly have mass shootings.

They'll bring up one random case where a bloke defends his house from a home invasion as sufficient reason.

This bit beggars belief - Mr Card is a trained firearms instructor at a US Army Reserve facility in Maine who was committed to a mental health facility for two weeks earlier this year. The document also said Mr Card had reported hearing voices and had threatened to carry out a shooting at the military training base in Saco, Maine.

Didn't think to perhaps remove his guns at that point!?! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Nothing to be done about that; it's in their genes. After all, that particular nation was mostly founded on condemned criminals, violent religious fanatics and ne'er-do-wells and misfits and madmen who'd failed to fit in and/or been thrown out of other, more civilised countries; often just before being hanged for some insignificant wrongdoing or other.

All things considered, the law does work pretty well. It is, as you point out, proper crazies doing most of the the mass-shooting, with criminal street-gangs making up the rest. Their normal, ordinary law-abiding citizens behave the same as normal, ordinary law-abiding citizens behave everywhere else. And it's not as though the world is running out of Americans, is it. Apparently there's three-hundert fiddy million of the buggers nowadays and millions more pouring in all the time.

Good luck to them.

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They have a very strained relationship with the word 'freedom'..... I would start there.

The card-carrying (no pun intended) religious fanatics are a huge political lobby in a country founded on the principle of the separation of church and state.

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Originally Posted by Peter

They have a very strained relationship with the word 'freedom'..... I would start there.

The card-carrying (no pun intended) religious fanatics are a huge political lobby in a country founded on the principle of the separation of church and state.

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America is quite unique in its approach to democracy, I think. Most countries rammed with power hungry politicians eventually end up in a quasi dictatorship with democracy really only convenient label to keep people happy.

In America, they are utterly committed to democracy but the politicians are so desperate for power that the idea of doing what is right or wrong has been completely replaced by doing what will get you elected.

This explains both the lack of any sensible gun control and Donald Trump's destruction of the Republican party imo.

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Originally Posted by WES

America is quite unique in its approach to democracy, I think. Most countries rammed with power hungry politicians eventually end up in a quasi dictatorship with democracy really only convenient label to keep people happy.

In America, they are utterly committed to democracy but the politicians are so desperate for power that the idea of doing what is right or wrong has been completely replaced by doing what will get you elected.

This explains both the lack of any sensible gun control and Donald Trump's destruction of the Republican party imo.

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Biden appears to be advancing towards senility at an alarming rate, meanwhile Trump, we’ll, let’s not get into Trump.
I’ve also noticed these mass killings are mainly the work of right wing, whitey nut jobs. 🤔

Right and don't we ALL!

Be fair, America is not even 250 years old yet; how "free" do we imagine England was at that age. Indeed, how much freedom do you think the redgunamos enjoy even to this day, and we're practically the oldest people on earth!

These things take time, as the man said; they are a baby nation full of babies.

The cousins' charming naivete is fascinating to watch, all the same.

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Originally Posted by Peter

They have a very strained relationship with the word 'freedom'..... I would start there.

The card-carrying (no pun intended) religious fanatics are a huge political lobby in a country founded on the principle of the separation of church and state.

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Right and don't we ALL!

Be fair, America is not even 250 years old yet; how "free" do we imagine England was at that age. Indeed, how much freedom do you think the redgunamos enjoy even to this day, and we're practically the oldest people on earth!

These things take time, as the man said; they are a baby nation full of babies.

The cousins' charming naivete is fascinating to watch, all the same.

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But we don't even claim to be free. Well, not those of us who are sensible, anyway. We see freedom as being subject to a clear set of laws and restrictions and having the ability to choose someone else to oversee them once every five years. And some obscure legal rights that are frequently trampled on....

We don't bang on about freedom. It is too vague to carry any meaning. Freedom from what? For whom?

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Originally Posted by WES

America is quite unique in its approach to democracy, I think. Most countries rammed with power hungry politicians eventually end up in a quasi dictatorship with democracy really only convenient label to keep people happy.

In America, they are utterly committed to democracy but the politicians are so desperate for power that the idea of doing what is right or wrong has been completely replaced by doing what will get you elected.

This explains both the lack of any sensible gun control and Donald Trump's destruction of the Republican party imo.

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I think they just talk about it more, they don't actually do it any better. This is a country that can barely hold a Presidential election and confirm a winner.

They are a great example of how a written constitution can be a hostage to fortune.

Surely in a democracy doing what is right or wrong and doing what will get you elected are the same thing? Vox Populi, Vox Dei, and all that :-)

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Originally Posted by Peter

Surely in a democracy doing what is right or wrong and doing what will get you elected are the same thing? Vox Populi, Vox Dei, and all that :-)

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Stop being silly, Peter

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Originally Posted by Peter

I think they just talk about it more, they don't actually do it any better. This is a country that can barely hold a Presidential election and confirm a winner.

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I think you've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, Peter. They held an election and ran it efficiently and honestly and the winner was clear.

The flaw was the fact that one of the candidates was so reprehensible that he couldn't accept the result. Whether this is a flaw in American democracy or democracy generally is a matter for debate.

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Originally Posted by WES

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, Peter. They held an election and ran it efficiently and honestly and the winner was clear.

The flaw was the fact that one of the candidates was so reprehensible that he couldn't accept the result. Whether this is a flaw in American democracy or democracy generally is a matter for debate.

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No, I didn't mean that one. I meant the Bush election with the whole '**** knows who won Florida' business.

Their elections are a mess.

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Originally Posted by WES

Stop being silly, Peter

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Who is to judge right and wrong if not the voters?

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Originally Posted by Peter

Who is to judge right and wrong if not the voters?

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Well it isn't that simple though, is it? Take the example of American policy towards Cuba. The large Cuban American population in Florida makes that vote very important if you want to win the state, and there are many who think you need Florida to win the Presidency. History shows this is largely true. So no sensible Presidential candidate pushes back on the absurd American foreign policy towards Cuba which has negatively affected millions of innocent people through embargos, political isolation etc.

It's wrong, but it gets you elected. Because of the flaw in democracy, or at least American democracy

Oh, you don't need to tell ME; Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit and a' that. :-\

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Originally Posted by Peter

But we don't even claim to be free. Well, not those of us who are sensible, anyway. We see freedom as being subject to a clear set of laws and restrictions and having the ability to choose someone else to oversee them once every five years. And some obscure legal rights that are frequently trampled on....

We don't bang on about freedom. It is too vague to carry any meaning. Freedom from what? For whom?

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Stay tuned. It'll all come out in the wash!

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Originally Posted by WES

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, Peter. They held an election and ran it efficiently and honestly and the winner was clear.

The flaw was the fact that one of the candidates was so reprehensible that he couldn't accept the result. Whether this is a flaw in American democracy or democracy generally is a matter for debate.

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Originally Posted by WES

Well it isn't that simple though, is it? Take the example of American policy towards Cuba. The large Cuban American population in Florida makes that vote very important if you want to win the state, and there are many who think you need Florida to win the Presidency. History shows this is largely true. So no sensible Presidential candidate pushes back on the absurd American foreign policy towards Cuba which has negatively affected millions of innocent people through embargos, political isolation etc.

It's wrong, but it gets you elected. Because of the flaw in democracy, or at least American democracy

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Right- so to win Florida you need to appeal to the voters in Florida.

And on the subject of simplicity, do you honestly believe that US policy to Cuba is a de facto matter of right and wrong? A simple casualty of electoral 'math' and not in any way related to the american obsession with communism.

Obviously I was being flippant with my original point but there is a serious point in there. With Brexit and Trump we saw how reluctant people are to accept a democratic defeat.

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Oh, you don't need to tell ME; Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit and a' that. :-\

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Bloody Germans :-)

With regards to their republic, President Trump is probably their best hope as they've been ****ing it up and selling it off for ages.

Of course, in the Old World, we're all too well aware these things don't last; things fall apart and you just have to dust yourselves down and go again. Happens all the time. My in-laws are fond of pointing out, We survived the Romans, the Vikings and Napoleon and the Nazis and the Red Peril and the Allies and we're STILL here, drinking our beer! Or words to that effect. Point is, people in Europe have been around the circle of history so many times that they do not panic every time a Russian sneezes or a Chinaman blows his nose (unlike our Yankee friends).

The Americans, on the other hand, will apparently be lucky to survive President Biden.
The US has never really been through any of this sort of thing so naturally they get rather excited about their own impending societal collapse. It's watching all those apocalypse movies and zombies on television that does it, I suppose. But we have seen the end of the world loads of times so it's old stuff, boring.

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Originally Posted by Peter

Right- so to win Florida you need to appeal to the voters in Florida.

And on the subject of simplicity, do you honestly believe that US policy to Cuba is a de facto matter of right and wrong? A simple casualty of electoral 'math' and not in any way related to the american obsession with communism.

Obviously I was being flippant with my original point but there is a serious point in there. With Brexit and Trump we saw how reluctant people are to accept a democratic defeat.

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Nah I don’t buy this one at all. If I was in the States I’d be like yer man from tremors with my arsenal of weaponry. Yeah, yeah I get it you could show me stats saying how many fewer would die if guns were illegal. I get that I do. But balls to it I’d be voting to keep my 50 odd guns. Not having a gun would be like a bloke choosing to cut off his cock. Now imagine instead of one cock you have 50? See what I mean? We’re keeping our cocks.

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

With regards to their republic, President Trump is probably their best hope as they've been ****ing it up and selling it off for ages.

Of course, in the Old World, we're all too well aware these things don't last; things fall apart and you just have to dust yourselves down and go again. Happens all the time. My in-laws are fond of pointing out, We survived the Romans, the Vikings and Napoleon and the Nazis and the Red Peril and the Allies and we're STILL here, drinking our beer! Or words to that effect. Point is, people in Europe have been around the circle of history so many times that they do not panic every time a Russian sneezes or a Chinaman blows his nose (unlike our Yankee friends).

The Americans, on the other hand, will apparently be lucky to survive President Biden.
The US has never really been through any of this sort of thing so naturally they get rather excited about their own impending societal collapse. It's watching all those apocalypse movies and zombies on television that does it, I suppose. But we have seen the end of the world loads of times so it's old stuff, boring.

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I've said this before, but it bears repeating- you are a a bit of an odd chap! :-)

I guess the American equivalent of the 'old hat' response you refer to is the prevalence of guns. It might be slightly odd to us that everyone is walking round packing but it is just natural to them. And mass shootings, well.... tragic, but to some extent unavoidable.

Either you're in the arms business or you're not.

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Originally Posted by Peter

I've said this before, but it bears repeating- you are a a bit of an odd chap! :-)

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This has been explained by red himself some time ago, Peter.

Both father and mother redgunamo were psychiatrists, you see :-)