Andrew Neil and Squeaking Little Shít Owen Jones should settle this like men.

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Originally Posted by Peter

Everything both of you say about them is sufficient evidence of your prejudice against muslims. I am quite frankly stunned that you are even denying it having boasted of it so proudly in previous conversations.

My original point was that I found it puzzling that B could clearly be anti-muslim yet so 'appalled' by the notion of anti-semitism in the labour party. The defence that it is purely their religion that you are opposed is nonsense, but when it came up I asked why you felt it was ok to discriminate against one person because of their religion but not another because of their race. It was then I pointed out that in eyes of the law both carry an equal penalty.

THe defence of 'having nothing against the individuals themselves' is as old as the hills and has been used by pretty much every exponent of particular prejudice in the modern era. 'I have nothing against you personally, mate, just your religion'.....

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Your argument is wilfully obtuse in that you refuse to distinguish between judging someone on the basis of what they choose to believe and the ethnicity with which they happen to be born.
One is a rational judgement predicated on an understanding of another's openly-expressed ideas and motivations, while the other is a blind prejudice based on an absurd, arbitrary and scientifically-meaningless distinction. Until such time as you acknowledge the obvious fact that these two things are utterly dissimilar, there really is no point in arguing with you. You seem simply to want to explain any objection to Islam away as racism and are prepared to ignore logic in order to do so. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Peter

I still cannot see the moral basis for justifying one hatred and castigating the other.

If I talk to an anti-semite they will say they have nothing against individual jews. THey will say they****ing despise zionism, that it has imprisoned the jewish faith and the jewish people in political dogma, that it is the brainchild of bankers and globalists that want to control foreign oil and plant US military might in the middle east. They will tell me they don't have the slightest problem with individual jewish people.

If you can sit there, in all honesty, and tell me that you are 100% comfortable that your prejudice is justified by being solely about a belief system whereas anti-semitism, in all it forms, must and shall be the hatred of all jewish people on the grounds of race then I will let this go right now.

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I am 100% comfortable that my contempt for Islam is justified by an understanding of the belief system that underpins it.
I am equally comfortable that anti-semitism has nothing to do with the belief system of Judaism and everything to do with a long-standing and deep-rooted European (and latterly Islamic) hatred of the Jews as a race.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Your argument is wilfully obtuse in that you refuse to distinguish between judging someone on the basis of what they choose to believe and the ethnicity with which they happen to be born.
One is a rational judgement predicated on an understanding of another's openly-expressed ideas and motivations, while the other is a blind prejudice based on an absurd, arbitrary and scientifically-meaningless distinction. Until such time as you acknowledge the obvious fact that these two things are utterly dissimilar, there really is no point in arguing with you. You seem simply to want to explain any objection to Islam away as racism and are prepared to ignore logic in order to do so. :shrug:

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So, just to check...if Monty comes to me for a job and I say 'sorry, mate, I dont hire jews'.... that is ok is it? It shouldn't be illegal?

and although you may disagree with me, you would support my right to discriminate on the grounds of his religion?

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Originally Posted by Peter

Everything both of you say about them is sufficient evidence of your prejudice against muslims. I am quite frankly stunned that you are even denying it having boasted of it so proudly in previous conversations.

My original point was that I found it puzzling that B could clearly be anti-muslim yet so 'appalled' by the notion of anti-semitism in the labour party. The defence that it is purely their religion that you are opposed is nonsense, but when it came up I asked why you felt it was ok to discriminate against one person because of their religion but not another because of their race. It was then I pointed out that in eyes of the law both carry an equal penalty.

THe defence of 'having nothing against the individuals themselves' is as old as the hills and has been used by pretty much every exponent of particular prejudice in the modern era. 'I have nothing against you personally, mate, just your religion'.....

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There are very good reasons why a comment such as stating it would have been better had no Muslim ever come to the UK is highly stigmatised and comes with a huge social penalty.

They are much the same reasons why discussing scientifically proven IQ differences across races (blacks lower than whites, Southeast Asians higher than whites, etc) is so radioactive. Both ideas have a historical legacy that none of us should want to revisit - but there remain people who wish to use such ideas to do just that.

The problem, however, is that both ideas have a strong case for being objectively true (when it comes to IQ across races, this is not even open to debate as the science is clear).

Furthermore, both ideas are also highly relevant to hugely important conversations that need to be had either now or in the future about the kind of societies we want to foster.

Which is why it is not always helpful when someone like you comes along and bandies crude words like racism and prejudice around.

You know full well why Burney and I don’t take the same position against any other religious group. If we woke up tomorrow morning and found that it was all a dream and it was in fact fundamentalist Buddhists or Jains whose disgusting belief systems and cultures had pervaded British society, our ire would turn in a split second to them.

And this fact (which I assume you accept) MUST be enough to acquit us of any meaningful charge of inherent discrimination. It is proof that what we object to are ideas - whoever holds them.

Regarding your final point about outdated justifications for bigotry, it has always been a mystery to me why “some of my best friends are xxx” has never been a sufficient counter argument to charges of prejudice. To me there could be no better proof that your prejudice is against ideas not people. But you continue to insist that we are lying or concealing our true feelings And it is this kind of bad faith that means conversations like this are always a dead end .

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Originally Posted by Peter

So, just to check...if Monty comes to me for a job and I say 'sorry, mate, I dont hire jews'.... that is ok is it? It shouldn't be illegal?

and although you may disagree with me, you would support my right to discriminate on the grounds of his religion?

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No, since because he's an entirely secular (indeed atheist) Jew, he has no religion on the basis of which to discriminate.

On the other hand, if M were a frummer and expected to be able to come to work in a silly hat and not work after dusk on a Friday, I would fully support your right not to employ him.

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Originally Posted by Burney

No, since because he's an entirely secular (indeed atheist) Jew, he has no religion on the basis of which to discriminate.

On the other hand, if M were a frummer and expected to be able to come to work in a silly hat and not work after dusk on a Friday, I would fully support your right not to employ him.

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Of course, we might also acknowledge that even if he were a cowboy hat / ringlet sporting dude, such beliefs would be unlikely to prompt him to take out his co-workers with a bread knife.

Since all religions aren't the same, I don't see why we should treat them all the same.

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Originally Posted by Sir C

Of course, we might also acknowledge that even if he were a cowboy hat / ringlet sporting dude, such beliefs would be unlikely to prompt him to take out his co-workers with a bread knife.

Since all religions aren't the same, I don't see why we should treat them all the same.

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Of course, but as an employer, you should have the right to decide whether having such an outlandishly-attired fellow representing your company is what's best for your business. Equally, he must accept that his rightful choice to go around looking ridiculous for religious reasons may come with penalties.

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Originally Posted by Burney

No, since because he's an entirely secular (indeed atheist) Jew, he has no religion on the basis of which to discriminate.

On the other hand, if M were a frummer and expected to be able to come to work in a silly hat and not work after dusk on a Friday, I would fully support your right not to employ him.

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Hmmm... ok....

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

I can't be bothered reading the rest of the thread. So what is Monty's 'preferred policy' then? How is he going to 'vet' Muslim immigrants?

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I don't think anyone should be vetted on their beliefs, for the reasons you state.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Your argument is wilfully obtuse in that you refuse to distinguish between judging someone on the basis of what they choose to believe and the ethnicity with which they happen to be born.
One is a rational judgement predicated on an understanding of another's openly-expressed ideas and motivations, while the other is a blind prejudice based on an absurd, arbitrary and scientifically-meaningless distinction. Until such time as you acknowledge the obvious fact that these two things are utterly dissimilar, there really is no point in arguing with you. You seem simply to want to explain any objection to Islam away as racism and are prepared to ignore logic in order to do so. :shrug:

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I am not doing that, b. I have asked why it is ok to discriminate against one person on the grounds of religion but not another on the grounds of race. I am not trying to cast your anti-muslimism as racism.