Speaking of getting slaughtered, I went to the bull fighting in Sevilla on Saturday

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

I'm not so sure. There hardly seems any point a society being so sophisticated and "moral" that it cannot reproduce anymore, even to the point that hordes of the very savages that enjoy these atavistic pleasures (like me, for instance) must be drafted in to make up the shortfall.

At least their cultural and societal mores have proven viable over a decent stretch of time.

Some German politico stated the other day that soon there will inevitably be a local version of Sharia law. So what was the point of it all then.

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If you were to argue that on our road to civilisation we may have thrown some babies out with the bathwater, I might agree. However, think stabbing bulls for fun is pretty much indefensible.

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

You see, this is precisely the trouble; if people actually saw what was going on, often in their name, then there'd be alot less of it going on. In their name. If you follow me.

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Oddly enough, I'm not sure that's true. Support for judicial execution in this the west, for instance, started to wane in popularity after it ceased to be a public spectacle rather than before. It started to be seen as something covert and shameful.

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Originally Posted by Burney

If you were to argue that on our road to civilisation we may have thrown some babies out with the bathwater, I might agree. However, think stabbing bulls for fun is pretty much indefensible.

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Yes, but what difference does it make, if that civilisation is recquired to have its own extinction built into it from the start.

I find it hard to get excited about animal torture, or even human torture, for that matter, when there are far more savage and barbaric acts taking place on a regular basis in my teenaged son's bedroom. Or so it sounds like.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Oddly enough, I'm not sure that's true. Support for judicial execution in this the west, for instance, started to wane in popularity after it ceased to be a public spectacle rather than before. It started to be seen as something covert and shameful.

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Yes, of course. I know. I just like Peter's sort to confront that truth, to admit it even to themselves :-)

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Originally Posted by Burney

Neither is OK. Hope that clears things up for you.

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foie gras not on your likes list?

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Originally Posted by Pokster

foie gras not on your likes list?

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I've already dealt with this red herring.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Apparently, one bullfight and you're an expert on the niceties of bovine suffering. Try looking up some facts about what you were watching.That's why the picadors do what they do. The whole point is to weaken and disable the bull, ffs!

The foie gras analogy is an irrelevant bit of whataboutery. Does the force-feeding of ducks and geese for food make the torture of a bull OK somehow? Of course not. It just means I'm somewhat hypocritical - as is anyone who eats meat. All of which alters the substance of the argument not one jot. What I do know is that I wouldn't go to watch the gavage for kicks and then dress it up as if it were some sort of high cultural moment.

I have chosen not to go to a bullfight because I know them objectively to involve animal torture and needless killing - indeed, that is their raison d'être. I don't need to watch one to know I don't want to. I am able to read about and watch things and make judgements accordingly. Equally, I've never watched a human being tortured, but I don't have to to know it's wrong.

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No, this is why we don't allow women to rule the world; you can't have it both ways.

Except when your mum insists, of course.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Equally, I've never watched a human being tortured, but I don't have to to know it's wrong.

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Hmmm. Watching Geoffrey score a hundred is to witness torture on an industrial scale imo.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Apparently, one bullfight and you're an expert on the niceties of bovine suffering. Try looking up some facts about what you were watching.That's why the picadors do what they do. The whole point is to weaken and disable the bull, ffs!

The foie gras analogy is an irrelevant bit of whataboutery. Does the force-feeding of ducks and geese for food make the torture of a bull OK somehow? Of course not. It just means I'm somewhat hypocritical - as is anyone who eats meat. All of which alters the substance of the argument not one jot. What I do know is that I wouldn't go to watch the gavage for kicks and then dress it up as if it were some sort of high cultural moment.

I have chosen not to go to a bullfight because I know them objectively to involve animal torture and needless killing - indeed, that is their raison d'être. I don't need to watch one to know I don't want to. I am able to read about and watch things and make judgements accordingly. Equally, I've never watched a human being tortured, but I don't have to to know it's wrong.

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Well, you seem to be an expert without having attended one at all so I'm not too sure why I can't be one. The picadors may have been intended to weaken the bull in whatever article you read but in the fights I watched they seemed to have little impact in that regard. They seemed more likely to be intended to aggravate the bull so that he would charge again, and in that regard they seemed very effective.

And the foie gras point was merely to show that you are being hypocritical, it's nice that you have recognized it.

And this 'involve animal torture and needless killing - indeed, that is their raison d'être' is inconsistent with my experience and I'm willing to bet that those who regularly attend bull fights would strongly disagree with. Just because you repeat something endlessly doesn't make it true, Burney. One of the many interesting things about the bull fights were how quiet the Spanish were, they were endlessly telling the crowd to be quiet. There was loud cheering for the moments of skill from the matadors and respectful applause when the bull was finally killed. At one point one of the matadors, in an effort to encourage the bull to charge, put his cape behind him, stood about 2 feet in front of the bull and placed his hand on the bull's nose. You could have heard a pin drop in the stadium at that moment. Had the bull charged the matador would have had no chance. Eventually he did and the matador side stepping him was met with a large round of applause.

My view would have been much like yours prior to me attending, Burney, however my experience tells me that the moral indignation that people express with respect the suffering of the bull and the spectacle itself it is actually slightly misplaced, certainly when compared to the suffering that animals that we eat endure.

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Originally Posted by Burney

If you were to argue that on our road to civilisation we may have thrown some babies out with the bathwater, I might agree. However, think stabbing bulls for fun is pretty much indefensible.

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Sorry I missed it earlier :-)