Anyway, I can't get excited about football. My joy over the election is too fresh.

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Originally Posted by WES

Support Leave on democratic principles but make the argument that while the Tories would sell out to Trump and disregard workers rights blah blah blah, Labour will negotiate a free trade deal that protects blah blah blah

There was all sorts of ammunition they could have used to argue that they would get a better deal

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The problem there was that he didn't have sufficient control of even his front bench to stop them running around telling anyone who'd listen that in the 2nd referendum that it was mandated by conference that they'd have to have, they'd vote remain - against any deal negotiated by Labour.

So again, failure of leadership.

That isn’t how the party sets policy.

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Originally Posted by WES

Support Leave on democratic principles but make the argument that while the Tories would sell out to Trump and disregard workers rights blah blah blah, Labour will negotiate a free trade deal that protects blah blah blah

There was all sorts of ammunition they could have used to argue that they would get a better deal

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Originally Posted by Monty92

At the 2018 party conference, BEFORE May had brought her deal back to Parliament, they voted for a second referendum.

Labour members were never, ever going to allow the party to vote through a Tory Brexit :shrug:

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They couldn't have stopped them from letting it through and a strong party leader would have been able to face down the membership and take the PLP with him. He could then - if need be - have gone on to push for a second referendum on May's deal with a degree of moral authority.

Essentially, his priority at all costs should have been to allow the tories to own brexit and then attack them in the aftermath, where he couldn't lose.

But he wasn't a strong leader and bent with the wind.

And just bent.

He’d d have faced shadow cabinet resignations left, right and centre. It would have been suicidal.

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Originally Posted by Burney

They couldn't have stopped them from letting it through and a strong party leader would have been able to face down the membership and take the PLP with him. He could then - if need be - have gone on to push for a second referendum on May's deal with a degree of moral authority.

Essentially, his priority at all costs should have been to allow the tories to own brexit and then attack them in the aftermath, where he couldn't lose.

But he wasn't a strong leader and bent with the wind.

And just bent.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

He’d d have faced shadow cabinet resignations left, right and centre. It would have been suicidal.

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Right. Because there’s no way Corbyn could ever survive Shadow Cabinet resignations, is there?
Oddly enough, the joy of his ‘project’ would have been that he could have relied upon the hardcore (and entryist members) to stay onside because achieving their socialist nirvana was more important than the short-term distraction of Brexit and this was how it could be achieved.
A clever, agile, charismatic and persuasive political leader could have pulled it off. Happily, Corbyn was none of those things.

You underestimate his underlying vulnerability that endured even after the 2017 election. Maintaining a leave position would likely have forced another leadership challenge, and that would have been decided by the membership, which would have no longer supported him.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Right. Because there’s no way Corbyn could ever survive Shadow Cabinet resignations, is there?
Oddly enough, the joy of his ‘project’ would have been that he could have relied upon the hardcore (and entryist members) to stay onside because achieving their socialist nirvana was more important than the short-term distraction of Brexit and this was how it could be achieved.
A clever, agile, charismatic and persuasive political leader could have pulled it off. Happily, Corbyn was none of those things.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

You underestimate his underlying vulnerability that endured even after the 2017 election. Maintaining a leave position would likely have forced another leadership challenge, and that would have been decided by the membership, which would have no longer supported him.

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His weakness was largely caused by his own failure to persuade people to his position. As I say, he just bent with the wind. Had he ever grabbed the party by the neck and outlined a vision, he could have done pretty much what he wanted post-2017.
And I think it's a massive assumption that he'd have lost a leadership challenge. Given a choice between losing control of the party and Brexit happening, I think the mass of the membership would have chosen the latter.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Right. Because there’s no way Corbyn could ever survive Shadow Cabinet resignations, is there?
Oddly enough, the joy of his ‘project’ would have been that he could have relied upon the hardcore (and entryist members) to stay onside because achieving their socialist nirvana was more important than the short-term distraction of Brexit and this was how it could be achieved.
A clever, agile, charismatic and persuasive political leader could have pulled it off. Happily, Corbyn was none of those things.

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Yes, that's right. Monty's argument is that Corbyn could have been elected had he not been Corbyn. :-)

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Originally Posted by Burney

The Labour Party could be tremendous viewing for the next few months.

I'm increasingly convinced they're going to make a woman leader - regardless of suitability. That raises the prospect of either Rebecca Long-Bailey and her wandering eyebrows or horse-faced, foghorn brummie media whore Jess Phillips becoming Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition.

Either would be a total fúcking disaster. Marvellous.

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I have to agree with you there. But what about thon northern lass with the rather sweet lisp b, Lisa Nandy - isn't she adorable?

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Originally Posted by Herbert Augustus Chapman

I have to agree with you there. But what about thon northern lass with the rather sweet lisp b, Lisa Nandy - isn't she adorable?

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I fear she's what Jezza's stormtroopers call 'a centrist melt', h.