Ladies and gentlemen. If you were looking for a way to fight back

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Originally Posted by Burney

I agree with all your points about the battle lines, but think the attempt to frame them within the context of Marxism isn't a good fit. For instance, nationalism was always anathema to the classical Marxist because it worked directly in opposition to the idea of internationalism. However, it is now a flag around which the culturally and socially diverse strands who oppose a globalist vision can rally. To frame that as a purely class issue is rather simplistic.

All in all, I think it's now simply too fragmented and diverse a social and political picture to apply any monolithic political framework to it.

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Marx's internationalism was based on a solidarity among workers, not a solidarity among owners of big capital, as per globalism. Nationalism doesn't have to be ugly, chauvinist and violent, but in the hands of the right it has sometimes shown an unfortunate tendency to take on these characteristics.

A healthy nationalism to oppose globalism should be based no the understanding that the nation state is currently the best unit of democratic self-determination available, while peacefully respecting other nations, not that ones own country is superior to the rest.

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Originally Posted by Ash

Marx's internationalism was based on a solidarity among workers, not a solidarity among owners of big capital, as per globalism. Nationalism doesn't have to be ugly, chauvinist and violent, but in the hands of the right it has sometimes shown an unfortunate tendency to take on these characteristics.

A healthy nationalism to oppose globalism should be based no the understanding that the nation state is currently the best unit of democratic self-determination available, while peacefully respecting other nations, not that ones own country is superior to the rest.

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Isn't your second paragraph there a mass of contradictions?

And anyway, Marx was a German; his innate idea was always based on the principle that the "German Way" would obviously always be predominant.

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Isn't your second paragraph there a mass of contradictions?

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Nope. Not to me. What is best for us is best for us. We don't have to impose it on everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Ash

Nope. Not to me. What is best for us is best for us. We don't have to impose it on everyone else.

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Surely that's inherent in the statement though? Not so much imposing it on everyone else as offering it to them. After all, why should anybody be forced to accept less than the best; asylum seekers, migrants and what-have-you. And when you want to exclude them, then where's the solidarity bit? If we say "Britain is best" then surely we have to put our money where our mouth is?

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Surely that's inherent in the statement though? Not so much imposing it on everyone else as offering it to them. After all, why should anybody be forced to accept less than the best; asylum seekers, migrants and what-have-you. And when you want to exclude them, then where's the solidarity bit? If we say "Britain is best" then surely we have to put our money where our mouth is?

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I think, on balance, you would probably find that there wasn't really much in it either way, if you see what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Peter

We still need a migrant workforce and we are still going to have one. Anyone who thought they were voting to end immigration is going to be pretty ****ing furious in 5-10 years time.

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I don't think many people were voting to end immigration, more to optimise it.

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Surely that's inherent in the statement though? Not so much imposing it on everyone else as offering it to them. After all, why should anybody be forced to accept less than the best; asylum seekers, migrants and what-have-you. And when you want to exclude them, then where's the solidarity bit? If we say "Britain is best" then surely we have to put our money where our mouth is?

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It's not up to us to decide what's best for them. It's up to them. And who is saying that Britain is best? And at what? If one country takes a path that works in some way, others may choose to follow.

It's imperialists, technocrats, jihadis and popes who insist they know what's best for everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Ash

I don't think many people were voting to end immigration, more to optimise it.

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I dont think many people are able to distinguish between those two things.