So it seems our chums in the ever-democratic EU are threatening to suspend Poland's

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

I doubt you ever understand anything you disagree with, do you. Funny that ;-)

You're not a snowflake, are you :-(

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Oh, not at all. I always understand why other people are wrong. :-)

And, no. NTTAWWI

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Originally Posted by Peter

And quite right too. German dominance of Europe is an economic inevitability and is therefore to be welcomed. The 'problem' is a century of resistance to it. All that matters is that it is achieved peacefully.

Anyway, none of our business. Our greatest periods of triumph have come from ignoring Europe altogether.

**** the trade deal and send the gunships east of the Med. The real good old days.

Let us meet next in Malacca :)

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Hard not to read that as: 'And I for one welcome the gentle pressure of our new teutonic overlords' boot on our neck'.

Fūck that, p. I didn't watch all those war films just to bow down to Hans Hun now.

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Originally Posted by Sir C

One wonders whether we shall be forced into a pact with the Russian devil once more. I suppose if we instituted a naval blockade and Putin switched off their gas they'd be tempted to negotiate...

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:nod: We should deffo snuggle up to Vlad. We've supped with longer spoons than that in our time.

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Originally Posted by Burney

:nod: We should deffo snuggle up to Vlad. We've supped with longer spoons than that in our time.

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For a start, the Germans are terrified of him.

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

For a start, the Germans are terrified of him.

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You can't really blame them after what happened last time.

:hehe: I shouldn't laugh, but, :hehe:

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

For a start, the Germans are terrified of him.

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A Germany that's terrified of Russia is an eminently good thing imo.

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Originally Posted by Sir C

You can't really blame them after what happened last time.

:hehe: I shouldn't laugh, but, :hehe:

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Yes. I imagine sizeable portions of the German population must be descendants of the last Russian army that rolled across the border.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Oh, dear. :-( And we were having such a nice chat until now. This is merely the hysterical ranting of a bedwetter, gg.

Oh, by the way, whenever someone says in all seriousness: 'The public should never have been entrusted with such a decision', I reach for my revolver. You either trust the public with decisions about how they are governed or you advocate tyranny. There is no middle ground.

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There is a middle ground and it is called parliamentary democracy. The public get to choose a few hundred people to make these decisions for us.

They either know best or they are not up to the job. The rest of us have our own work to be getting on with.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Yes. I imagine sizeable portions of the German population must be descendants of the last Russian army that rolled across the border.

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Plenty of recent immigrants too. Perhaps even too much plenty.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Hard not to read that as: 'And I for one welcome the gentle pressure of our new teutonic overlords' boot on our neck'.

Fūck that, p. I didn't watch all those war films just to bow down to Hans Hun now.

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We bow to nobody, b. We owe Europe nothing and ask nothing from it. If they cant fight off the Gerries that is their problem. Let it never again become ours.

Our future lies with our past in the East. A new Pax Britannica.....

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Originally Posted by Peter

There is a middle ground and it is called parliamentary democracy. The public get to choose a few hundred people to make these decisions for us.

They either know best or they are not up to the job. The rest of us have our own work to be getting on with.

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Absolutely, and I'm a big fan of it - as long as it remains representative. Where that duty of representation fails - as it did so abjectly on the question of the EU - then the need for recourse to direct democracy arises.

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Originally Posted by Peter

There is a middle ground and it is called parliamentary democracy. The public get to choose a few hundred people to make these decisions for us.

They either know best or they are not up to the job. The rest of us have our own work to be getting on with.

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No, they know nothing, which is why they can all be readily ignored. As you say, just get on with your own life.

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Plenty of recent immigrants too. Perhaps even too much plenty.

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Yes. You have to say this for the keen rapists of the Red Army: whatever their faults, a lack of thoroughness was not among them.

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Originally Posted by Peter

We bow to nobody, b. We owe Europe nothing and ask nothing from it. If they cant fight off the Gerries that is their problem. Let it never again become ours.

Our future lies with our past in the East. A new Pax Britannica.....

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That would be great. Trouble is, an o'ermighty Germany will inevitably end up bothering us.

Maybe we could nuke them now? It would save an awful lot of time later.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Yes. You have to say this for the keen rapists of the Red Army: whatever their faults, a lack of thoroughness was not among them.

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Decent lads, but they will insist on wearing shower flip-flops outdoors :-(

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Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult

1. We haven't extracted ourselves from German hegemony. We had been pooling sovereignty. We got our way in votes 95% of the time, more than both Germany and France. We now have no say in the rules that govern 44% of our exports.

2.The UK and Turkey as military powers? Lol. Bring in France and we can have Crimea 2.0. And we don't want hostile relations with our major trade partner.

3. How are we going to afford to arm? We are predicted to lose 9.5% of our GDP by 2030 because of Brexit. The public - including the idiots who voted fro Brexit - are now saying they want an end to austerity. Yet they voted to see the pound fall by 15-20%, which isn't helpful for a country with a large current account deficit, and for inflation to go well beyond the MPC's 2% remit and for a massive fall in our GDP.

Brexit is going to make us much, much poorer, as everyone knows full well. It disgusts me that there were about a dozen studies looking at how much Brexit will cost us in GDP loss, and all but one said it would be big. The other was was Economists for Brexit - 8 people. So because 8 ideologues came up with taht crap about us being richer, the Beeb were froced to say that there were arguments both ways.

And now all the predictions - as people realise what it entails - are saying it's going to be much worse than we thought a year ago.

By on earth did people vote to make themselves much poorer? The public should never have been entrusted with such a decision. We don't have the space or facilities to have customs checks at the ports for all the containers. Euratom, the fall in all the NHS workers etc. The rural food industry can't get the fruit pickers et al it needs.

I really worry for thsi country. If people are complaining about austerity now, what will they do in a decade when GDP is down 10%? They were moaning about only getting a 1% public sector pay rise. Now we need 3% just to keep real wages on a par.

People are going to realise that they have become a lot, lot poorer and that the reduced growth will devastate the public services they rely on. And what happens when the voters or govt have to decide which groups of people suffer most from the shrinking pie.

One half of the country will know that it's all the fault of the other half.

I can see a dark political future for this country, potentially.

When people see that we've fallen from being as rich as France to as poor as Portugal, and knowing that unlike, say, the Wall St crash that:
1. It's not affecting every nation, just us.
2. That it's not going to go back to how it was, we've got this forever.
3. That it wasn't outsiders - foreign bankers or a hostile power - that's to blame, it's one half of our fellow citizens.

Do you not worry about how voters wil react when it dawns on them what they have either done or had done to them by the other group?

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You've marshaled a lot of facts here, my friend. I will say this. Sometimes it's about having *the right* to assert yourself. It may cause a lot of ****, but freedom isn't free. Ganpati. Freedom isn't free. These Europeans are always trying to take British babies and use them in some sort of new socialistic food bank. They get reconstituted as paste, or pellets. So it's hardly surprising that the British wanted to say, enough.

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Decent lads, but they will insist on wearing shower flip-flops outdoors :-(

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Hairy backs. That's the thing that always strikes me about Russians. Hairy backs.

It's a sign of coarse breeding, you know.

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Originally Posted by eastgermanautos

You've marshaled a lot of facts here, my friend. I will say this. Sometimes it's about having *the right* to assert yourself. It may cause a lot of ****, but freedom isn't free. Ganpati. Freedom isn't free. These Europeans are always trying to take British babies and use them in some sort of new socialistic food bank. They get reconstituted as paste, or pellets. So it's hardly surprising that the British wanted to say, enough.

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Finally, our colonial cousins appear across the pond to put all straight.

wd ega.

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Originally Posted by Sir C

Hairy backs. That's the thing that always strikes me about Russians. Hairy backs.

It's a sign of coarse breeding, you know.

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Well all the decent ones were either killed or fled between 1917 and 1953. Only the dregs are left.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Absolutely, and I'm a big fan of it - as long as it remains representative. Where that duty of representation fails - as it did so abjectly on the question of the EU - then the need for recourse to direct democracy arises.

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Which is where the peculiarly british pomposity about representation starts to get on my ****ing tits. The notion that YOUR MP is elected to represent YOUR views has been utter nonsense since political parties acquired the semblance of party organisation in the 1830s.

The first thing your MP does on arrival at Westminster is take the whip, meaning he speaks, acts and votes with and for his party. What his constituents may or may not believe does not matter a jot for another 4 and a half years.
You either accept this arrangement or you don’t.

Demanding a referendum when it doesn’t get you what you want is not the done thing at all.

Poor form.

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Originally Posted by Sir C

Finally, our colonial cousins appear across the pond to put all straight.

wd ega.

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Np :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by eastgermanautos

Np :thumbup:

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You're a bit late to the party, to be honest.

Nothing new there, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Burney

History demonstrates that Europe can never be safe with a united Germany, I'm afraid. Reunification will prove to have been a disaster for Western Europe.

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I do concede that even though we can't predict the future solely on the past, our Bosche brethern don't have a great record as a united nation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir C

Hairy backs. That's the thing that always strikes me about Russians. Hairy backs.

It's a sign of coarse breeding, you know.

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Don't look at me; the redgunamos are an essentially hairless variety :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Burney

That would be great. Trouble is, an o'ermighty Germany will inevitably end up bothering us.

Maybe we could nuke them now? It would save an awful lot of time later.

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The East, b. All of it.

India, China (sorry, but we have to), the tiger economies of South East Asia.

And at some point, the Yanks, I suppose. Leave that for now though.

Germany wont fancy all of that. The Russians are the bigger worry.

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Originally Posted by Peter

Which is where the peculiarly british pomposity about representation starts to get on my ****ing tits. The notion that YOUR MP is elected to represent YOUR views has been utter nonsense since political parties acquired the semblance of party organisation in the 1830s.

The first thing your MP does on arrival at Westminster is take the whip, meaning he speaks, acts and votes with and for his party. What his constituents may or may not believe does not matter a jot for another 4 and a half years.
You either accept this arrangement or you don’t.

Demanding a referendum when it doesn’t get you what you want is not the done thing at all.

Poor form.

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Sure, but if Brexit demonstrates anything, it's that all major parties simply ignoring the feelings of a majority of voters on the key constitutional matter affecting the country for 40-odd years and carrying on regardless really doesn't work.

That, it seems to me, is the lesson our political classes are struggling to learn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

The East, b. All of it.

India, China (sorry, but we have to), the tiger economies of South East Asia.

And at some point, the Yanks, I suppose. Leave that for now though.

Germany wont fancy all of that. The Russians are the bigger worry.

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We can't invade China, man! Are you quite sane? They've got an army of 18 billion and they're all experts in kung fu.

No no, it would be a disaster.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

Sure, but if Brexit demonstrates anything, it's that all major parties simply ignoring the feelings of a majority of voters on the key constitutional matter affecting the country for 40-odd years and carrying on regardless really doesn't work.

That, it seems to me, is the lesson our political classes are struggling to learn.

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That depends on the belief that it is the key constitutional matter. Its not. It means very little and is too complicated for the mass populace to comprehend.

And they didn't ignore the feelings of the majority- they just didn't agree with them. Its called leadership.

David Cameron, for all his faults, understood this.

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Originally Posted by Sir C

We can't invade China, man! Are you quite sane? They've got an army of 18 billion and they're all experts in kung fu.

No no, it would be a disaster.

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Wooooah!!!

Who mentioned invasion?? These people are our friends, Sir C. Friends and partners. Let us work with them and build a secure and prosperous Asia. Europe is done, leave the rubble to the Germans.

I shall take up residence in Penang. I assume you will fancy Singapore?

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Originally Posted by Peter

That depends on the belief that it is the key constitutional matter. Its not. It means very little and is too complicated for the mass populace to comprehend.

And they didn't ignore the feelings of the majority- they just didn't agree with them. Its called leadership.

David Cameron, for all his faults, understood this.

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It's not British leadership though. That's why he had to go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

Oh, dear. :-( And we were having such a nice chat until now. This is merely the hysterical ranting of a bedwetter, gg.

Oh, by the way, whenever someone says in all seriousness: 'The public should never have been entrusted with such a decision', I reach for my revolver. You either trust the public with decisions about how they are governed or you advocate tyranny. There is no middle ground.

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Firstly, there is a middle ground. Represnentative democracy, not referendums. I don't know what level our interest rates should be, so we leave it to the MPC overseen by a govt, accountable in parl, which has experts to advise them.

We shouldn't let the public vote every three months on what the rate should be. Cos people with mortguages will vote for 0% and people with savings will vote for 100%. Leave it to the experts, accountable to govt, accountable to parl, accountable to their voters.

This is precisely the middle ground I'm talking about. Put experts, govt and parl between the voters and the decision.

But the econ issues are not the hysterical rantins of a bedwetter. You read the Times, don't you? Because the Times, FT and Economist have been showing almost daily how this is really going to cost us **** loads.

And if every economist, bar 8, in the country says it's going to cost us **** loads, I trust them. All the experts know this is going to be an economic disaster. A slow, drawn out one, admittedly, but a disaster none the less.

But please answer my question about what happens when our economy does go tits up.

Just for sake of argument, assume that it does go bad. Very bad. The 9.5% fall in GDP predicted by 2030.

How do you think the voters will react? One half knowing the other has ruined their and their children's' futures.

And what about those who voted fro Brexit? Will the Mail and Sun tell them that it was their fault, that they should have listened to all the experts who told them they'd be much poorer? Or will it say that they have been stabbed in the back by traitors like post-ww1 Germany? What do you think?

You really don't think some form of extremism can happen here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

That depends on the belief that it is the key constitutional matter. Its not. It means very little and is too complicated for the mass populace to comprehend.

And they didn't ignore the feelings of the majority- they just didn't agree with them. Its called leadership.

David Cameron, for all his faults, understood this.

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The 'too complicated' thing is just what those in power say when they want the public to fūck off and stop asking awkward questions.

EU membership only became 'too complicated' because our political classes allowed it to. The public have applied Alexander's solution to the Gordian knot it is and it is now the business of those political classes to sort that out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

Wooooah!!!

Who mentioned invasion?? These people are our friends, Sir C. Friends and partners. Let us work with them and build a secure and prosperous Asia. Europe is done, leave the rubble to the Germans.

I shall take up residence in Penang. I assume you will fancy Singapore?

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Friends? Don't be ridiculous. They hate us and our sour milk smell and will never be our friends.

I'd rather live in Essex than Singapore. Singapore? Is there a more soulless place full of soulless people than Singapore?

Bangkok for me. A little place on the Chao Praya down at Silom or Saphan Taksin, I think

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Don't look at me; the redgunamos are an essentially hairless variety :shrug:

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What, completely smooth - all over? I expect that's quite a sight when it's all oiled up, isn't it?

Pic?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult

Firstly, there is a middle ground. Represnentative democracy, not referendums. I don't know what level our interest rates should be, so we leave it to the MPC overseen by a govt, accountable in parl, which has experts to advise them.

We shouldn't let the public vote every three months on what the rate should be. Cos people with mortguages will vote for 0% and people with savings will vote for 100%. Leave it to the experts, accountable to govt, accountable to parl, accountable to their voters.

This is precisely the middle ground I'm talking about. Put experts, govt and parl between the voters and the decision.

But the econ issues are not the hysterical rantins of a bedwetter. You read the Times, don't you? Because the Times, FT and Economist have been showing almost daily how this is really going to cost us **** loads.

And if every economist, bar 8, in the country says it's going to cost us **** loads, I trust them. All the experts know this is going to be an economic disaster. A slow, drawn out one, admittedly, but a disaster none the less.

But please answer my question about what happens when our economy does go tits up.

Just for sake of argument, assume that it does go bad. Very bad. The 9.5% fall in GDP predicted by 2030.

How do you think the voters will react? One half knowing the other has ruined their and their children's' futures.

And what about those who voted fro Brexit? Will the Mail and Sun tell them that it was their fault, that they should have listened to all the experts who told them they'd be much poorer? Or will it say that they have been stabbed in the back by traitors like post-ww1 Germany? What do you think?

You really don't think some form of extremism can happen here?

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No. I refuse to countenance your rather silly premise. And quoting three fanatically pro-Remain publications does not aid your cause.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir C

Friends? Don't be ridiculous. They hate us and our sour milk smell and will never be our friends.

I'd rather live in Essex than Singapore. Singapore? Is there a more soulless place full of soulless people than Singapore?

Bangkok for me. A little place on the Chao Praya down at Silom or Saphan Taksin, I think

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We can probably do without your sort anyway. Plenty of good men will fancy finding their fortune in the East.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

We can probably do without your sort anyway. Plenty of good men will fancy finding their fortune in the East.

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I don't think I'd be able to bear the heat in Singapore. Or the crowds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

We can probably do without your sort anyway. Plenty of good men will fancy finding their fortune in the East.

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Look, if it's an updated brand of colonial exploitation you're after, I'm all over it. Find me an opium den and three or four filthy oriental fillies to mop my brow, and I'm your man. My concern would be that your generation will ty to do things... ethically. :shudder:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

I don't think I'd be able to bear the heat in Singapore. Or the crowds.

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Pfff. Call yourself an Englishman? Sir Stanford Raffles never removed his jacket or loosened his cravat.

I shall wear tweeds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir C

Pfff. Call yourself an Englishman? Sir Stanford Raffles never removed his jacket or loosened his cravat.

I shall wear tweeds.

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It's true. I think I'd be dreaming fondly of a cold, wet London day in February before a week was out.