We are both being entirely logical, as far as I can tell. We are simply hard-wired (and probably socially conditioned) to want slightly different things for slightly different reasons.
You attitude is akin to telling someone they are being illogical for ordering something different to you in a restaurant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by World's End Stella
I haven't given a penny to Arsenal in years. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
And if I did, it would be because even if I consider the product unsatisfactory, that wouldn't stop me from enjoying a day out.
Which isn't in any way illogical.
The illogical bit was your (long proved) inability to follow the argument through in a logical manner. We disagreed on what it was easier for the board to have done. You somehow morphed the discussion into a point about the board only finding it difficult to be objective and rational, which didn't really follow. It is a valid point, it simply has nothing to do with our different points of view nor why we hold them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
Your argument was that keeping Wenger was the easiest decision because the stakes were low.
I believe this to be an overly simplistic analysis that disregards how difficult it is to make rational decisions - particularly in the face of pressure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by World's End Stella
So you believe that the rational decision was to keep Wenger. I got that. And I sort of thought you might explain the rationale behind that statement rather than point out that making rational decisions can be difficult in the face of pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
Actually, don't bother. I'm bored now. It was a simple disagreement that we were probably aware of prior to your post. And I have no interest in a discussion on the difficulty of making rational decisions under pressure.
I'm more interested in lunch, now.
The rationale is that, in my view, on balance he’s doing ok and his replacement might do worse (something I know you would concede is entirely possible).
You think he’s not doing ok. We could thrash that one out too, but as I said before the difference between our positions would be negligible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by World's End Stella
A splendid performance from you of looking down your nose at the common fan or supporter of the club. Quite in character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
Mouth breather indeed.
:hehe:
Pat on the head, well done.
To be fair, though, sw, some of them are pretty grotesque.Quote:
Originally Posted by SWv2
You think he should be kept on and is doing ok, I think he should be sacked and the club has been seriously under performing for at least 6 or 7 years because of his stubbornness and arrogance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
The difference between those positions is hardly negligible. :rolleyes:
We are one of the top 10 richest clubs in the world, we are 5th in our domestic league, we are 1 point ahead of Watford, 2 points ahead of Newcastle and 3 points ahead of Burnley, we are 9 points behind the league leaders after 9 games, using linear extrapolation this would lead to us ending up 38 points behind the league leaders, we have not meaningfully challenged for the PL or CL in almost 10 years.
Explain to me how this is 'OK'. Now, you see, this is the way a logical argument/discussion is conducted.
Well, we both agree he’s been underperforming. So on that point the difference is only a matter of degree.
You believe the cause of this has been his arrogance and stubbornness. I would counter that both traits are essential in a successful manager and without them we’d very likely be doing even worse.
So I maintain, we are more alligned than you may like to think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by World's End Stella
Stubbornness is a weapon when you are right, an obstacle when you are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
His problem is he keeps getting it wrong
Oh very good philosophy Peter
Stolen ?
I still apply the fine margins principle.
How many clubs of our size would have the chutzpah to claim they *should* have won the league in recent years?
Do you hear Liverpool or Spurs fans saying they gave up a golden chance to win it a couple of years ago?
No. And you should ask yourself why that is.
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Originally Posted by Peter
Given that Pedro has form for being incapable of original thought then yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viva Prat Vegas
I think you will find the answer here is in fact Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
They were arguably 90 minutes (less) from being champions and their fans that I know are fully aware of this.
I said should not could.
Our claims were couched in a sense of entitlement that we knew we were good enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWv2
Yes, and most sane Liverpool supporters know they should have won it that year. They were in pole position as such and utterly fúcked it up. Don't forget how close they came, that one game at Anfield where SG memorably fell over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
Arguably closer than we have come since the good old days.
Did anyone say we should have won the league? I think people (me anyway) have suggested we should challenge for the league more often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
I refer you back to my comment about your ability to follow a logical argument.
You don’t think we had the potential to win it two years ago and based on that potential and who eventually won it arguably should have capitalised on that potential?
Quote:
Originally Posted by World's End Stella
Tough ****, arse face. All my own work.Quote:
Originally Posted by SWv2
So up yours you Weller-loving hunk of junk.
The margins are fairly fine, I suppose. I havent claimed we 'should' have won the league but you cant sit there and honestly say that the Leicester years wasnt a MASSIVE missed opportunity. In a season when all the 'big' clubs were ****e they sauntered to the league with 81 points. In previous seasons we have been capable of at least keeping in touch with that sort of total but we completely collapsed. We should have put in a strong challenge that year and we utterly failed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
You also have to accept that we are not getting better and dont look like addressing the difficulties we tend to suffer. He Ozil and Sanchez situation suggests the very strong possibility that next summer is going to be quite bad. Our transfer activity looks suspiciously odd most summers.
I am now at the stage where not even a tiny part of me has any confidence whatsoever that Wenger is capable of doing any better than a distant fourth, or maybe third. Leaving everything else aside, that is enough for me to want to give somebody else a go. I would happpily risk finishing 15th for the possibility of doing better.
In short, I'm bored.
Really, is that what we have become?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Or, to put it in a way you might not be altogether comfortable with, you’ve had enough of experts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
You aren't suggesting that if you want to catch teams that finished ahead of you in the previous season and spent over 100mil+ each over the summer in order to improve their squads, that generating a net transfer profit might not be a good idea?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
That would be some serious cutting edge thinking there, Peter old bean. :hehe:
I dont really know what you mean by that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
I would like us to fail in a different way next year, for the sheer variety of it. I think that says it best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by World's End Stella
Specifically, no, I wasnt. We could have spent 200 million in the summer and it would likely have made no difference. I dont even trust him to spend it in the right areas anymore so I dont think money is a solution.
We obviously had some money to spend yet in the 24 hour a day news cycle throughout the summer I dont recall us ever being linked with a midfielder when it is perfectly ****ing obvious that we are crying out for an improvement there.
I just dont trust Wenger anymore, in any aspect. Quite frankly I would rather we didnt give him a load of money to spend.
It was a childish response, that I will grant you.Quote:
Originally Posted by SWv2
However, you started it.
Well Spurs made a net profit and they are the golden boys of the premier league. Liverpool spent about £40 million and are even ****ter than us.
The only clubs that have spent **** loads and have something to show for it are the clubs who are either still benefiting from financial doping or are simply much bigger than us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by World's End Stella
:sigh: :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
I feel that there’s something of the brexiteer about your position on Wenger. Your desire for change is little more than an instinct. You’re bored.
Looking at it like this, perhaps I should be a little more sympathetic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
So the only ones who have spent ****loads and have something to show for it are the ones who spent ****loads?Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
I agree that spending more money wont solve the problem but that doesnt really explain some of the odd behaviour we have seen over recent summers. THe year we signed nobody, the year we signed nobody until Ozil on the last day, this summer when we refused to budge on Sanchez until the last day and then ran out of time. The year he left us with only a 19 year old as cover at centre back. THe three years in a row he had to act in January to get midfield cover after doing nothing all summer.
We have bought some good players but there have been glaring errors and a bit of a feel of indecision. One wonders whether wenger and Gazidis are consistently on the same page.
It is more that I have run out of faith in him, completely. Now I am convinced we cant do any better with him I am willing to risk the 'leap in the dark' without him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
That doesnt mean I dont still love him. Its like a wife whose cooking is never going to get any better. You get fed, you stay alive, but surely there are better meals out there somewhere.
The analogy is deliberately sexist, before you start ;)
But my point was that your loss of faith is an instinct. How could it be anything else? You’re not an expert. Neither of us are. We’re just some ****s on a message board.
Though obviously some ****s are more equal than others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Tracing back through the conversation, its based on a balance of experience and his stubbornness. What he does has not worked for years and he isn't one for changing his mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
Obviously 'faith' (and let us not start on that again) is never going to be a scientific calculation but equally I have not plucked it out of the air.
His sides will continue to have the same weaknesses and these will always sufficiently undermine the strengths to ensure that we never get beyond our comfortable 3rd/4th place which now seems to be the distant horizon of ambition rather than the comfort zone.
Brexit was a desire to undo a change, not the other way about; we've always disliked the Germans and the French.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
And the Belgians.Quote:
Originally Posted by redgunamo
Everyone basically, that's maybe why we live on an island :homer:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
I think the major issue was that they constantly bickered with each other and we were sick of hearing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by redgunamo
Obviously we had our own particular issues with the French (who wouldn't) and the germans sometimes turned up mob-handed looking for a ruck.....