Well done to the Biriths state for upholding its right to kill innocent individuals

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Originally Posted by Mo Britain less Europe

No compassion was involved. Only an infringement of the ultimate civil liberty, the right to try and save your life by whatever means possible. The intent was to stop the child from having potential life-saving treatment. If this line was taken with every new treatment we'd still be chewing leaves every time we had a headache.

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strategic health authorities and NHS trusts make life decisions every single ****ing day as to whether or not to allow a patient to undergo surgery, other treatments, etc. based entirely on available resources. Little in the way of compassion is involved in the decision tree (being a parent / responsibility for young kids is the main 'compassion' point). The Gard case went beyond that in so far as money was not the issue. The MDT involved in this case obviously felt any treatment would not increase the kid's quality of life

like I said, happens every day.

sad all the same.

[QUOTE=Burney;4171195] A child incapable of expressing an informed preference is in the care of the state, not of anyone else. His parents are not and never were empowered to override the NHS's clinical decision in this matter.

[QUOTE]

You started by saying this was nothing whatsoever to do with the state. Now the child is in their care. And he died.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Until proven, with peer-reviewed data, double-blind testing and all the rest, such a treatment has EXACTLY the same status as prayer and homeopathy, yes. That's how science works.

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No, it is how it is supposed to work. Or at least how medical science is supposed to work. Plenty of other factors get in the way. You are coming a little close to suggesting that something only works once science says it does.

Does marijuana have any positive health benefits? Did it have these fifty years ago when it was an evil drug, frying your brain?

Scientists are just as human as the rest of us, just not as good looking. ****s.

[QUOTE=Peter;4171203][QUOTE=Burney;4171195] A child incapable of expressing an informed preference is in the care of the state, not of anyone else. His parents are not and never were empowered to override the NHS's clinical decision in this matter.

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You started by saying this was nothing whatsoever to do with the state. Now the child is in their care. And he died.

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I started by refuting Mo's claim that the state killed him. In fact, no-one killed him and the courts (i.e. not the state) made the final decision.

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Originally Posted by Peter

No, it is how it is supposed to work. Or at least how medical science is supposed to work. Plenty of other factors get in the way. You are coming a little close to suggesting that something only works once science says it does.

Does marijuana have any positive health benefits? Did it have these fifty years ago when it was an evil drug, frying your brain?

Scientists are just as human as the rest of us, just not as good looking. ****s.

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The scientific method as I've described it is the reason we are where we are today. It keeps us reasonably safe from poison, unwanted side effects and quackery. It is the means by which we sort anecdote and coincidence from fact.

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Originally Posted by Peter

Why couldn't The Doctor come to the kid and at least have a look?

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He/She is busy regenerating at the moment, I gather.

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Originally Posted by Ash

He/She is busy regenerating at the moment, I gather.

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:hehe: wd a.

Although obviously you're going to hell for making jokes about a dying baby.

[QUOTE=Burney;4171209][QUOTE=Peter;4171203]

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Originally Posted by Burney

A child incapable of expressing an informed preference is in the care of the state, not of anyone else. His parents are not and never were empowered to override the NHS's clinical decision in this matter.



I started by refuting Mo's claim that the state killed him. In fact, no-one killed him and the courts (i.e. not the state) made the final decision.

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Of course they didn't kill him. They just let him die. The state, that is.

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Originally Posted by Burney

The scientific method as I've described it is the reason we are where we are today. It keeps us reasonably safe from poison, unwanted side effects and quackery. It is the means by which we sort anecdote and coincidence from fact.

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Observed fact. And the point about coincidence is interesting. Science doesn't set out to prove that something 'works'. It sets out to understand how it works. What it doesn't understand it labels coincidence.

Because, as I say, scientists are all ****s. I don't need to understand how nicotine works to know I want a fag.

[QUOTE=Peter;4171222][QUOTE=Burney;4171209]

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Originally Posted by Peter

Of course they didn't kill him. They just let him die. The state, that is.

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They conceded - based on huge levels of medical knowledge and a profound understanding of medical ethics - that his death was inevitable and allowed it to happen while ensuring he suffered as little as possible.

A baby bird falls out of the tree. It is clearly badly injured, in shock and too young to survive alone. Its parents cannot save it and it is merely a question of how and when it dies - not if. What is the ethical course of action? :shrug:

[QUOTE=Burney;4171231][QUOTE=Peter;4171222]

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Originally Posted by Burney

They conceded - based on huge levels of medical knowledge and a profound understanding of medical ethics - that his death was inevitable and allowed it to happen while ensuring he suffered as little as possible.

A baby bird falls out of the tree. It is clearly badly injured, in shock and too young to survive alone. Its parents cannot save it and it is merely a question of how and when it dies - not if. What is the ethical course of action? :shrug:

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What if, as you about to stamp on his head, a vet rings and says its a long shot but he might be able to save it? What do you do?

I would try a homeopathic remedy myself ;)

[QUOTE=Peter;4171249][QUOTE=Burney;4171231]

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Originally Posted by Peter

What if, as you about to stamp on his head, a vet rings and says its a long shot but he might be able to save it? What do you do?

I would try a homeopathic remedy myself ;)

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Is the vet going to foot the bill or is he going to ask you to pay for it?

[QUOTE=Pokster;4171250][QUOTE=Peter;4171249]

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Originally Posted by Burney

Is the vet going to foot the bill or is he going to ask you to pay for it?

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Asking that question implies it is potentially an option. Case closed.

Unfortunately, its too late and the bird is now dead.

[QUOTE=Peter;4171249][QUOTE=Burney;4171231]

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Originally Posted by Peter

What if, as you about to stamp on his head, a vet rings and says its a long shot but he might be able to save it? What do you do?

I would try a homeopathic remedy myself ;)

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I would weigh the options, thinking about whether prolonging the poor thing's suffering was right, given the odds and then stamp on its head.

[QUOTE=Peter;4171256][QUOTE=Pokster;4171250]

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Originally Posted by Peter

Asking that question implies it is potentially an option. Case closed.

Unfortunately, its too late and the bird is now dead.

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But why did you phone the vet? the bird wasn't injured it had just fallen out of its nest... i suspect you tried to kill it and felt guilty you heartless *******

[QUOTE=Pokster;4171260][QUOTE=Peter;4171256]

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Originally Posted by Pokster

But why did you phone the vet? the bird wasn't injured it had just fallen out of its nest... i suspect you tried to kill it and felt guilty you heartless *******

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I didn't phone the vet. He just happened to hear about it.

Its that Irish one that does all the weird surgery and makes metal legs for dogs.

[QUOTE=Burney;4171259][QUOTE=Peter;4171249]

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Originally Posted by Burney

I would weigh the options, thinking about whether prolonging the poor thing's suffering was right, given the odds and then stamp on its head.

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Murderer!

For shame.....

[QUOTE=Peter;4171270][QUOTE=Pokster;4171260]

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Originally Posted by Peter

I didn't phone the vet. He just happened to hear about it.

Its that Irish one that does all the weird surgery and makes metal legs for dogs.

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Ahhh, so he was doing it for publicity and his next series then... I suspect the bird didn't fall and he had placed it on the ground and just hoped you didn't stamp on its head

[QUOTE=Peter;4171270][QUOTE=Pokster;4171260]

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Originally Posted by Peter

I didn't phone the vet. He just happened to hear about it.

Its that Irish one that does all the weird surgery and makes metal legs for dogs.

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He's a right ***** that bloke. Always performing outrageous and very possibly cruel surgeries. He'd be struck off if he were a doctor.

[QUOTE=Peter;4171272][QUOTE=Burney;4171259]

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Originally Posted by Peter

Murderer!

For shame.....

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Well I could just leave it to get eaten, starve or run over. :shrug:

[QUOTE=Burney;4171275][QUOTE=Peter;4171270]

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Originally Posted by Pokster

He's a right ***** that bloke. Always performing outrageous and very possibly cruel surgeries. He'd be struck off if he were a doctor.

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He has some impressive health outcomes stats though.

[QUOTE=Peter;4171284][QUOTE=Burney;4171275]

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Originally Posted by Peter

He has some impressive health outcomes stats though.

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Pah. I bet he's killing animals with monotonous regularity. He's more Dr Mengele than Dr Doolittle if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Burney

A child incapable of expressing an informed preference is in the care of the state, not of anyone else. His parents are not and never were empowered to override the NHS's clinical decision in this matter.

Modern science does not work by chucking early-stage, wholly unproven treatments at desperately sick babies on the vague off-chance they might work. That would be both bad science and monstrously unethical.

Your suggestion that there was no compassion involved in this decision is, I'm afraid, absurd. Compassion was absolutely at the heart of this decision.

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What utter rubbish. Corbynista nonsense. The state does not own anyone's life, not even a convict serving a life sentence.

You might be a rabbit who is happy for the men in white coats to play with at will, my life is worth more than any tuppence artist on the NHS might think it. If it was me and my money, I would have my child or myself trying the treatment and anyone trying to stop me would answer with their own lives because no-one has the right to stop me from doing what I think is best for myself or my child if I can afford to pay for it.