Another thing. Would it be too much to ask for Petr Cech to

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Originally Posted by SWv2

We had 48 hours B, not "no recovery time" as you say.

Not ideal as I have stressed but not a complete handicap either.

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Well no handicap is 'complete' in a sporting sense - that's the point of handicaps, they are designed to level the field when there is one manifestly superior performer. What this handicap did was bring our fitness, availability and stamina down to a level that lessened or even negated the impact of our generally superior players, allowing Bournemouth to take advantage - at least until they became tired, at which point our advantage was restored.

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Originally Posted by SWv2

We had 48 hours B, not "no recovery time" as you say.

Not ideal as I have stressed but not a complete handicap either.

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There is a reason Europa League sides don't play on the Saturday having played on a Thursday, mind you, they're still usually **** on the Sunday

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Originally Posted by Burney

No-one can seriously believe that, if the two sides had equal time between games, Arsenal's first half performance would have been as bad as it was.

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Oh I absolutely believe that, mostly because I have seen this happen to us so many times before. A less talented team (Southampton from a few years back comes to mind, Spurs not so long ago, Liverpool* first game of this season) presses us and we are unable to handle it, lose our composure and put in an appalling first half performance. Second half we come out and settle and eventually begin wearing them down and come back into the game. And this happens with identical rest periods prior to the game.

That's why I'm not buying the fatigue argument, Burney. Last night wasn't anything new.

* yes, I consider Liverpool to be less talented than Arsenal, league position aside

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Originally Posted by Burney

Well no handicap is 'complete' in a sporting sense - that's the point of handicaps, they are designed to level the field when there is one manifestly superior performer. What this handicap did was bring our fitness, availability and stamina down to a level that lessened or even negated the impact of our generally superior players, allowing Bournemouth to take advantage - at least until they became tired, at which point our advantage was restored.

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I have to say, Burney, I find this idea that Bournemouth got tired but we didn't to be disingenuous at the very least. While I appreciate that they were working harder than us, it's not like Arsenal were standing around breathing in oxygen and receiving massages while Bournemouth ran about. We were also putting in a significant amount of effort and if we really were at that much of an advantage I would have expected us to really struggle second half.

And how many times do you see teams press other teams and then get tired and the other team weathers the storm and then gets back into it? That happens all the time, and it happened last night, so I fail to see that the initial additional fatigue really had much of an impact.

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

I have to say, Burney, I find this idea that Bournemouth got tired but we didn't to be disingenuous at the very least. While I appreciate that they were working harder than us, it's not like Arsenal were standing around breathing in oxygen and receiving massages while Bournemouth ran about. We were also putting in a significant amount of effort and if we really were at that much of an advantage I would have expected us to really struggle second half.

And how many times do you see teams press other teams and then get tired and the other team weathers the storm and then gets back into it? That happens all the time, and it happened last night, so I fail to see that the initial additional fatigue really had much of an impact.

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Nowhere have I said that we got tired but Bournemouth didn't. I've simply said that Bournemouth coming fast out of the blocks and running much more than us took so much out them that, by the final third of the game, they were shot and their physical advantage had decreased to the extent that our players' innate technical superiority was able to assert itself and restore our inherent advantage.

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

Oh I absolutely believe that, mostly because I have seen this happen to us so many times before. A less talented team (Southampton from a few years back comes to mind, Spurs not so long ago, Liverpool* first game of this season) presses us and we are unable to handle it, lose our composure and put in an appalling first half performance. Second half we come out and settle and eventually begin wearing them down and come back into the game. And this happens with identical rest periods prior to the game.

That's why I'm not buying the fatigue argument, Burney. Last night wasn't anything new.

* yes, I consider Liverpool to be less talented than Arsenal, league position aside

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Your argument is all over the place here. First of all, you seem to suggest that the fact that we have been caught cold in the past constitutes evidence that an obvious mitigating factor cannot apply. That is clearly nonsense akin to suggesting that, because you have seen someone driving badly once or twice in the past, there can be no possibility that their accident can have any causes other than them simply being a bad driver.
Second, your suggestion that Bournemouth are a comparable team in terms of ability to Liverpool and Spurs is just silly. And Southampton, I would point out (who are closer to Bournemouth in ability, but still superior) beat us in that game also over the congested Christmas period when fatigue was a factor.
Elsewhere, you seem to have suggested that, because a number of players starting yesterday did not start against Palace, that the lack of rest was again not an issue in our performance. This conveniently ignores the fact that having to choose squad players rather than first choices is just as much of a direct disadvantage conferred by the 48-hour gap as the tiredness of those players who did start.

There are indeed lots of factors that can influence and decide football matches – quality of players, quality of preparation and tactics, individual moments of brilliance or indeed the opposite and even intangible things which we often like to mock and dismiss such as the much vaunted issue of desire which can manifest itself in many ways.

I see someone (PRSB?) pointed out earlier how stats wise they covered a cumulative distance of greater than 8-9k more than us. Sounds a lot but it isn’t really when you average it out over 10-12 outfield players.

I also see that one of their players (Gosling) himself covered over 14k last night, the highest on record for any player in the league this season. An extra 24 hours rest, or simply a desire and willingness to run his little south coast *******s off for the team?

I would suggest the latter based on the fact that their players on average covered a greater distance than any other PL team. Desire again, a willingness to work very hard to overcome perhaps a technical deficiency on other better teams.

We actually had greater possession than them, more passes completed yet not one shot on target in the opening 45 minutes. That is not fatigue, just plain and simply playing ****.

No invention, no creation, no Ozil, an off-key Sanchez, midfielders allowing opposition players to run past them, a keeper who we all know to be brilliant but increasingly has us shaking our heads, too many Oxlade Chamberlains on the pitch, Giroud being the utterly useless ******** Giroud that we all know for the first 70 minutes, utterly ****ing abysmal.

Or just fatigue.

We've seen it many times before.

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Originally Posted by SWv2

There are indeed lots of factors that can influence and decide football matches – quality of players, quality of preparation and tactics, individual moments of brilliance or indeed the opposite and even intangible things which we often like to mock and dismiss such as the much vaunted issue of desire which can manifest itself in many ways.

I see someone (PRSB?) pointed out earlier how stats wise they covered a cumulative distance of greater than 8-9k more than us. Sounds a lot but it isn’t really when you average it out over 10-12 outfield players.

I also see that one of their players (Gosling) himself covered over 14k last night, the highest on record for any player in the league this season. An extra 24 hours rest, or simply a desire and willingness to run his little south coast *******s off for the team?

I would suggest the latter based on the fact that their players on average covered a greater distance than any other PL team. Desire again, a willingness to work very hard to overcome perhaps a technical deficiency on other better teams.

We actually had greater possession than them, more passes completed yet not one shot on target in the opening 45 minutes. That is not fatigue, just plain and simply playing ****.

No invention, no creation, no Ozil, an off-key Sanchez, midfielders allowing opposition players to run past them, a keeper who we all know to be brilliant but increasingly has us shaking our heads, too many Oxlade Chamberlains on the pitch, Giroud being the utterly useless ******** Giroud that we all know for the first 70 minutes, utterly ****ing abysmal.

Or just fatigue.

We've seen it many times before.

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Do you not agree that fatigue is the most likely reason why a team of talented players might underperform, though? And that that underperformance in turn will spur on the opposition?

You can't just say it's all down to 'playing shït' and nothing to do with tiredness. I would suggest that that Venn diagram involves rather too much crossover for such an analysis to stand up to scrutiny.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Your argument is all over the place here. First of all, you seem to suggest that the fact that we have been caught cold in the past constitutes evidence that an obvious mitigating factor cannot apply. That is clearly nonsense akin to suggesting that, because you have seen someone driving badly once or twice in the past, there can be no possibility that their accident can have any causes other than them simply being a bad driver.

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I suggested nothing of the kind. I said that because I have seen us struggle before in similar circumstances and based on the way the game played out, I saw nothing that made me think that the additional fatigue had a significant impact on the outcome. Your assertion that I suggested that no mitigating factor could be applied is an enormous logical leap.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Second, your suggestion that Bournemouth are a comparable team in terms of ability to Liverpool and Spurs is just silly.

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I didn't suggest that at all, I listed three teams of lesser ability than Arsenal, I never compared their ability. Another enormous logical leap. And the Southampton results I was referring to were two draws in the same season the last time Pochettino managed them as he had them playing a similar pressing style.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Elsewhere, you seem to have suggested that, because a number of players starting yesterday did not start against Palace, that the lack of rest was again not an issue in our performance. This conveniently ignores the fact that having to choose squad players rather than first choices is just as much of a direct disadvantage conferred by the 48-hour gap as the tiredness of those players who did start.

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In which case the issue from an Arsenal perspective was not fatigue but a lack of squad depth, which most people would agree should not be an issue given the financial disparity between the clubs.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Your argument is all over the place here. First of all, you seem to suggest that the fact that we have been caught cold in the past constitutes evidence that an obvious mitigating factor cannot apply. That is clearly nonsense akin to suggesting that, because you have seen someone driving badly once or twice in the past, there can be no possibility that their accident can have any causes other than them simply being a bad driver.
Second, your suggestion that Bournemouth are a comparable team in terms of ability to Liverpool and Spurs is just silly. And Southampton, I would point out (who are closer to Bournemouth in ability, but still superior) beat us in that game also over the congested Christmas period when fatigue was a factor.
Elsewhere, you seem to have suggested that, because a number of players starting yesterday did not start against Palace, that the lack of rest was again not an issue in our performance. This conveniently ignores the fact that having to choose squad players rather than first choices is just as much of a direct disadvantage conferred by the 48-hour gap as the tiredness of those players who did start.

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****ing hell...... this really is dragging on isn't it.

Look, the fact is we are more than capable of playing that badly every now and then without being tired or lacking recovery time. It is just something we do. Tiredness is mental as well as physical and the mental side affects concentration and, almost ashamed to admit it, desire. Knowing our players the fact that Wenger went on and on about the lack of recovery probably played on their mind and gave them an excuse (to some extent). Some of them simply don't have the right attitude and focus. The lack of recovery time might have been mitigated if the group of players who should have come in (Walcott, Gibbs, Ozil) were not injured or ill. Typical...

We don't really know why they played so badly night. It could be a combination of things and we have no real way of measuring the relative significance of each factor. Lets just agree that they are a bunch of useless ****s who belong in fourth place :D

Its good to be back.....

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Originally Posted by Peter

****ing hell...... this really is dragging on isn't it.

Look, the fact is we are more than capable of playing that badly every now and then without being tired or lacking recovery time. It is just something we do. Tiredness is mental as well as physical and the mental side affects concentration and, almost ashamed to admit it, desire. Knowing our players the fact that Wenger went on and on about the lack of recovery probably played on their mind and gave them an excuse (to some extent). Some of them simply don't have the right attitude and focus. The lack of recovery time might have been mitigated if the group of players who should have come in (Walcott, Gibbs, Ozil) were not injured or ill. Typical...

We don't really know why they played so badly night. It could be a combination of things and we have no real way of measuring the relative significance of each factor. Lets just agree that they are a bunch of useless ****s who belong in fourth place :D

Its good to be back.....

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Nicely stated. Welcome back, Peter. :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Burney

Do you not agree that fatigue is the most likely reason why a team of talented players might underperform, though? And that that underperformance in turn will spur on the opposition?

You can't just say it's all down to 'playing shït' and nothing to do with tiredness. I would suggest that that Venn diagram involves rather too much crossover for such an analysis to stand up to scrutiny.

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No.

I am a very talented footballer but very often I just can’t be ****ing bothered and on such occasion my standards drop to just being better than most others.

Sometimes I am not even tired.

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Originally Posted by SWv2

There are indeed lots of factors that can influence and decide football matches – quality of players, quality of preparation and tactics, individual moments of brilliance or indeed the opposite and even intangible things which we often like to mock and dismiss such as the much vaunted issue of desire which can manifest itself in many ways.

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Jorge has gone. You can probably mention desire now without getting jumped on.

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Originally Posted by Ash

Jorge has gone. You can probably mention desire now without getting jumped on.

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Thank you A, he was exactly who was in my mind as I typed all that nonsense.

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Originally Posted by SWv2

No.

I am a very talented footballer but very often I just can’t be ****ing bothered and on such occasion my standards drop to just being better than most others.

Sometimes I am not even tired.

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Yes, but you are an amateur park player of advanced years with a fondness for the good things in life (and The Jam). We are talking about highly paid professional athletes in their teens and 20s who are constantly operating on the outer envelope of human physical performance. Such chaps, I would suggest, very rarely fall into the category of not being bothered.