I'll tell you what's ****, ****ing relatives sending

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Originally Posted by Burney

I think you'll find that kids' have a rather more fluid concept of reality than you imagine. Most of the time, they are almost alarmingly materialistic. When they're not, it's usually because they choose not to be.

My daughter 'believed' in Santa Claus to the extent that she got a stocking full of gewgaws once a year. She obviously ceased to believe in him at some point because she's not a retard, but continued with the pretence because she a/ realised it pleased her parents as much as it did her and b/ because she was worried that if she admitted she didn't believe in him, she wouldn't still get the stocking.

Essentially, what you seem to be scared of is that your child will be too thick to work shït out for himself. That's pointless because he almost certainly isn't and, if he is, telling him Santa isn't real won't save him.

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No, I'm not scared of that at all. I'm scared that along with being formally introduced to the concepts of religion and faith (which he will be as soon as he enters education), it will help inculcate a general credulousness that will be harder to shrug off as he grows older.

Given that much of human psychology is determined in the early years, and given how prevalent credulousness is among otherwise intelligent adults, I see this as a genuine risk.

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Originally Posted by Burney

I've heard they eat fish for Christmas dinner. Can that be true? :-(

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The julbord is full of all different kinds of fish. I end up having a plate of boiled potatoes and ham because i wont touch any of the other filth.

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Originally Posted by Burney

All perfectly normal. I knew a chap who wedged an Action Man's head up his brother's arse in the bath :shrug:

Myself, I just contented myself with showing my penîs to any of my sisters' friends who came to the house.

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And at what age did this stop?

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Originally Posted by Burney

It is perfectly foul. As you know, I find the whole dried fruit and suet thing that's associated with Christmas utterly baffling.

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I've got to cook three seperate christmas dinner this year. Three! That's taking the piss. One shall be goosey, one turkey ( :-( ) and the other, perhaps, beefribby.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

No, I'm not scared of that at all. I'm scared that along with being formally introduced to the concepts of religion and faith (which he will be as soon as he enters education), it will inculcate a credulousness that will be harder to shrug off.

Given that much of human psychology is determined in the early years, and given how prevalent credulousness is in otherwise intelligent adults, I see this as a genuine risk.

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However, it's equally prevalent for people who believed in Santa and the tooth fairy as children and were surrounded by religion to grow up without the merest smidgeon of religious faith. I managed it, as did you and - I presume - your good lady, so why do you think your son won't be able to do the same?

Also, if you really want to avoid the whole religion thing, oughtn't you logically to be banning Christmas altogether?

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Originally Posted by Sir C

I've got to cook three seperate christmas dinner this year. Three! That's taking the piss. One shall be goosey, one turkey ( :-( ) and the other, perhaps, beefribby.

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The actual Christmas Day dinner is supposed to be being cooked by my daughter, nieces and nephews. However, since I have no desire to spend Christmas night and Boxing day shïtting myself inside out, I will have to muscle in at some point.

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Originally Posted by Luis Anaconda

And at what age did this stop?

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Stop? Sorry, I don't follow you.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Stop? Sorry, I don't follow you.

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:-) No wonder your Christmas will be fun

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Originally Posted by Burney

However, it's equally prevalent for people who believed in Santa and the tooth fairy as children and were surrounded by religion to grow up without the merest smidgeon of religious faith. I managed it, as did you and - I presume - your good lady, so why do you think your son won't be able to do the same?

Also, if you really want to avoid the whole religion thing, oughtn't you logically to be banning Christmas altogether?

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It's not just about religion. I think credulousness is essentially a bug in our human hardware that can mestastasise if you don't catch it early. I know I risk sounding a bit fanatical, but it's really about nothing more than wanting my kids to fulfill their intellectual potential (something I personally feel short-changed about).

Regarding Christmas, I have no problem with traditions and customs deriving from religion that have taken on secular forms. There is no conceit to Christmas.

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Originally Posted by Luis Anaconda

And at what age did this stop?

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You assume he's stopped

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Originally Posted by Monty92

It's not just about religion. I think credulousness is essentially a bug in our human hardware that can mestastise if you don't catch it early. I know I risk sounding a bit fanatical, but it's really about nothing more than wanting my kids to fulfill their intellectual potential (something I personally feel short-changed about).

Regarding Christmas, I have no problem with traditions and customs deriving from religion that have taken on secular veneers. There is no conceit to Christmas.

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I'm not really clear how believing in Santa as a five year-old can stop one from fulfilling one's intellectual potential, tbh. It's a simply massive leap from believing in Santa to an all-consuming life of religious devotion and one that I'm not convinced has any basis in fact.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

It's not just about religion. I think credulousness is essentially a bug in our human hardware that can mestastasise if you don't catch it early. I know I risk sounding a bit fanatical, but it's really about nothing more than wanting my kids to fulfill their intellectual potential (something I personally feel short-changed about).

Regarding Christmas, I have no problem with traditions and customs deriving from religion that have taken on secular forms. There is no conceit to Christmas.

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Simple, relevant and pertinent question here, I feel.

Monty, would you describe yourself as a control freak? Or, at least, partially one?

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

Simple, relevant and pertinent question here, I feel.

Monty, would you describe yourself as a control freak? Or, at least, partially one?

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I've always found that phrase a bit meaningless. Not least because everyone seems to call themselves a control freak as soon as they want something done properly that isn't entirely in their own hands.

So occasionally, yes, but not pathalogically. And I don't think anyone's ever suggested I am, that I can recall.

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Originally Posted by Burney

I'm not really clear how believing in Santa as a five year-old can stop one from fulfilling one's intellectual potential, tbh. It's a simply massive leap from believing in Santa to an all-consuming life of religious devotion and one that I'm not convinced has any basis in fact.

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As I said, it's very much not just about religion. You can be credulous about literally anything, Jeff.

Maybe you're right and it's unlikely to make a difference. But I don't see sufficient cost-benefit in letting the lie endure.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

As I said, it's very much not just about religion. You can be credulous about literally anything, Jeff.

Maybe you're right and it's unlikely to make a difference. But I don't see sufficient cost-benefit in letting the lie endure.

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Does this cost-benefit analysis include such things as them spending their adult lives moaning about how they weren't even allowed to believe in Father Christmas when they were kids because their dad had weird, North Londoney ideas about parenting?

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Originally Posted by Burney

Does this cost-benefit analysis include such things as them spending their adult lives moaning about how they weren't even allowed to believe in Father Christmas when they were kids because their dad had weird, North Londoney ideas about parenting?

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I don't worry too much about that, to be honest. I reckon I'm sufficiently non-weird about most other stuff to just about compensate...

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Originally Posted by Monty92

I don't worry too much about that, to be honest. I reckon I'm sufficiently non-weird about most other stuff to just about compensate...

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You'd be surprised what kids hold deep resentments about. I still get grief from my 18 year-old about a particular incident where I made her eat ratatouille when she was about 7. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Burney

You'd be surprised what kids hold deep resentments about. I still get grief from my 18 year-old about a particular incident where I made her eat ratatouille when she was about 7. :rolleyes:

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Rightly so, I think. Tyrant.

You, not her.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

It's not just about religion. I think credulousness is essentially a bug in our human hardware that can mestastasise if you don't catch it early. I know I risk sounding a bit fanatical, but it's really about nothing more than wanting my kids to fulfill their intellectual potential (something I personally feel short-changed about).

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Without credulity we'd never have come down from the trees in the first place. Seriously, without belief, the sun would fail to come up in the morning.

Instead a mere ball of flaming gas would appear over the horizon. You could grind the whole universe into dust and not find a single speck of justice, compassion, or love. All of these are our creations, from our imaginations, that make us human.

Also, you should have more belief in your child's abilities and more respect for their freedom. With an attitude like yours they might rebel and go off and become radical god-bothers of your least favourite variety, or something.

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Originally Posted by Ash

Without credulity we'd never have come down from the trees in the first place. Seriously, without belief, the sun would fail to come up in the morning.

Instead a mere ball of flaming gas would appear over the horizon. You could grind the whole universe into dust and not find a single speck of justice, compassion, or love. All of these are our creations, from our imaginations, that make us human.

Also, you should have more belief in your child's abilities and more respect for their freedom. With an attitude like yours they might rebel and go off and become radical god-bothers of your least favourite variety, or something.

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Nope. Justice, compassion and love are all driven by our evolutionary instinct. How they manifest is of course socially and culturally constructed but the instincts are innate.

And there is absolutely no need to believe in anything supernatural for anyone to live their lives according to these innate instincts.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Nope. Justice, compassion and love are all driven by our evolutionary instinct. How they manifest is of course socially and culturally constructed but the instincts are innate.

And there is absolutely no need to believe in anything supernatural for anyone to live their lives according to these innate instincts.

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I'm sure Mohammed Bin-Monty will thank you for your attitude one day. Probably save some money not buying him that bottle every year, now

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Originally Posted by Luis Anaconda

I'm sure Mohammed Bin-Monty will thank you for your attitude one day. Probably save some money not buying him that bottle every year, now

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:nono: Yusuf al-East-Finchley imo

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Originally Posted by Burney

:nono: Yusuf al-East-Finchley imo

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Mohampstead, actually

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Nope. Justice, compassion and love are all driven by our evolutionary instinct. How they manifest is of course socially and culturally constructed but the instincts are innate.

And there is absolutely no need to believe in anything supernatural for anyone to live their lives according to these innate instincts.

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And yet man has always sought a greater truth, which suggests that there is an innate instinct which leads to this pursuit and consequently to a belief system of some kind.

And you sound very much like a control freak, if you don't mind me saying so. That could very well be because of your OCD combined with your love for your children and concern for their well being.

But you're thinking about it too much, Monty. The children will become what they will become. As long as you and your partner provide a loving and caring environment and encourage them to do their best, you've really done all that you can, or need to, do. The rest comes down to human genetics and fate, neither of which you control.

So chill and enjoy them for what they are and what they become.

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

And yet man has always sought a greater truth, which suggests that there is an innate instinct which leads to this pursuit and consequently to a belief system of some kind.

And you sound very much like a control freak, if you don't mind me saying so. That could very well be because of your OCD combined with your love for your children and concern for their well being.

But you're thinking about it too much, Monty. The children will become what they will become. As long as you and your partner provide a loving and caring environment and encourage them to do their best, you've really done all that you can, or need to, do. The rest comes down to human genetics and fate, neither of which you control.

So chill and enjoy them for what they are and what they become.

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Well you say 'greater truth', but what you actually mean is 'comforting lie'. And it's not 'instinct' that leads us to seek that, it's the fear of eternal non-existence - the chilling fact that the Universe will carry on without us and not give a fück. That's not an innate instinct, it's just solipsism.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Well you say 'greater truth', but what you actually mean is 'comforting lie'. And it's not 'instinct' that leads us to seek that, it's the fear of eternal non-existence - the chilling fact that the Universe will carry on without us and not give a fück. That's not an innate instinct, it's just solipsism.

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Thank you......

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Thank you......

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This doesn't mean I don't think you're being a bit of a dick about Santa, btw.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Well you say 'greater truth', but what you actually mean is 'comforting lie'. And it's not 'instinct' that leads us to seek that, it's the fear of eternal non-existence - the chilling fact that the Universe will carry on without us and not give a fück. That's not an innate instinct, it's just solipsism.

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I'm looking at it from their perspective. A perspective that I have no intention of dismissing as easily as you do, Burney.

And you could classify the search for a greater truth as being as much an 'evolutionary instinct' as any of the examples that Monty gave.

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

I'm looking at it from their perspective. A perspective that I have no intention of dismissing as easily as you do, Burney.

And you could classify the search for a greater truth as being as much an 'evolutionary instinct' as any of the examples that Monty gave.

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Man invented god in order to elevate the status of man. The whole purpose is to suggest that - uniquely among the creatures of the earth - man is simply too special just to die and turn to yuck, so must therefore have a special place in the heart of the creator that entails us - guess what? - surviving death in some form.
it's not hard to see how it works. We invent stories to explain the things we don't understand and which frighten us. And, since death is the ultimate unknowable, terrifying mystery, we invent gods to give it meaning and take the edge off it. It's all a perfectly rational response in a sense - nothing to do with any instinct other than fear.

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

I'm looking at it from their perspective. A perspective that I have no intention of dismissing as easily as you do, Burney.

And you could classify the search for a greater truth as being as much an 'evolutionary instinct' as any of the examples that Monty gave.

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The collorary of this point of view is that it's only our innate desire to pursue meaning where there is none that stops us from becoming nihilists. After all, if there is no greater truth, and if existence is meaningless, what is the point in being a kind, good, ethical person?

The point is that being a kind, good, ethical person is beneficial to us from an evolutionary perspective, and our instincts to be kind, good and ethical can very well come solely from these instincts, without any belief in anything greater.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Nope. Justice, compassion and love are all driven by our evolutionary instinct. How they manifest is of course socially and culturally constructed but the instincts are innate.

And there is absolutely no need to believe in anything supernatural for anyone to live their lives according to these innate instincts.

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Well, of course everything is here for evolutionary reasons, but it doesn't mean that they don't require belief to function. I am diputing your claim that credulity, or credulousness as you had it, is a bug. It's not a bug it's a feature.

As an aside - we don't even directly experience the universe at all. Our senses are instruments which take readings of light, sound, temperature etc, and our brain takes these readings and constructs a hallucination based on the data, which we believe to be the real thing. Nobody knows what colour 'red' really is.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Man invented god in order to elevate the status of man. The whole purpose is to suggest that - uniquely among the creatures of the earth - man is simply too special just to die and turn to yuck, so must therefore have a special place in the heart of the creator that entails us - guess what? - surviving death in some form.
it's not hard to see how it works. We invent stories to explain the things we don't understand and which frighten us. And, since death is the ultimate unknowable, terrifying mystery, we invent gods to give it meaning and take the edge off it. It's all a perfectly rational response in a sense - nothing to do with any instinct other than fear.

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To be fair, my cat *is* going to heaven when he finally succumbs to the Good Aids

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Originally Posted by Monty92

The collorary of this point of view is that it's only our innate desire to pursue meaning where there is none that stops us from becoming nihilists. After all, if there is no greater truth, and if existence is meaningless, what is the point in being a kind, good, ethical person?

The point is that being a kind, good, ethical person is beneficial to us from an evolutionary perspective, and our instincts to be kind, good and ethical can very well come solely from these instincts, without any belief in anything greater.

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Also, human beings aren't very good at nihilism. It's an uncomfortable way of carrying on for anyone but a psychopath.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

The collorary of this point of view is that it's only our innate desire to pursue meaning where there is none that stops us from becoming nihilists. After all, if there is no greater truth, and if existence is meaningless, what is the point in being a kind, good, ethical person?

The point is that being a kind, good, ethical person is beneficial to us from an evolutionary perspective, and our instincts to be kind, good and ethical can very well come solely from these instincts, without any belief in anything greater.

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I'm assuming you mean 'corollary'. :-)

I think the two are tightly related. As man evolved and his intellect improved he naturally, you could say instinctively, became more curious. This curiosity led to him searching for explanations, this led to religion, religion led to common sets of beliefs and to some extent therefore communities, communities led to the further exchange of ideas and beliefs and this increased the pace of cultural evolution etc etc etc.

It's difficult to break out the correlations and dependencies, impossible I would say even. But the pursuit of ideas and beliefs is as much an 'instinct' as anything you listed, I think. And religion cannot be easily disconnected from the instincts you refer to.

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Originally Posted by Ash

Well, of course everything is here for evolutionary reasons, but it doesn't mean that they don't require belief to function. I am diputing your claim that credulity, or credulousness as you had it, is a bug. It's not a bug it's a feature.

As an aside - we don't even directly experience the universe at all. Our senses are instruments which take readings of light, sound, temperature etc, and our brain takes these readings and constructs a hallucination based on the data, which we believe to be the real thing. Nobody knows what colour 'red' really is.

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He's as black as your boot, imo.

Oh, I see what you mean. Sorry :homer:

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Originally Posted by Monty92

To be fair, my cat *is* going to heaven when he finally succumbs to the Good Aids

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Nope. No animals in heaven. Which, when you think about it is utterly fûcking ridiculous. Essentially it suggests God would go to all the trouble of creating beautiful, complex creatures like the higher mammals and then go "Yeah, they look great, but fûck 'em. I'm going to spend all eternity worrying about this slow, weak, ugly ape instead." It makes no sense and suggests yet again that if God did exist, he would be a frighteningly capricious bÃ*stard with a frankly alarming lack of impulse control.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

The collorary of this point of view is that it's only our innate desire to pursue meaning where there is none that stops us from becoming nihilists. After all, if there is no greater truth, and if existence is meaningless, what is the point in being a kind, good, ethical person?

The point is that being a kind, good, ethical person is beneficial to us from an evolutionary perspective, and our instincts to be kind, good and ethical can very well come solely from these instincts, without any belief in anything greater.

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Is that so. Well then, your mum is beneficial to us from an evolutionary perspective.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Nope. No animals in heaven. Which, when you think about it is utterly fûcking ridiculous. Essentially it suggests God would go to all the trouble of creating beautiful, complex creatures like the higher mammals and then go "Yeah, they look great, but fûck 'em. I'm going to spend all eternity worrying about this slow, weak, ugly ape instead." It makes no sense and suggests yet again that if God did exist, he would be a frighteningly capricious bÃ*stard with a frankly alarming lack of impulse control.

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With apologies, this is possibly the worst parcel of shÃ*te ever to be posted on the internet. You should read something and educate yourself before you run off at the mouth and embarrass yourself, k?

Attachment 387

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Originally Posted by Sir C

With apologies, this is possibly the worst parcel of shÃ*te ever to be posted on the internet. You should read something and educate yourself before you run off at the mouth and embarrass yourself, k?

Attachment 387

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But I've had loads of cats. Are they all going to rock up at the Rainbow Bridge? That will be awkward as they'll probably all start fighting.

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Originally Posted by Sir C

With apologies, this is possibly the worst parcel of shÃ*te ever to be posted on the internet. You should read something and educate yourself before you run off at the mouth and embarrass yourself, k?

Attachment 387

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Hear. Hear.