So the Archbish of C said the EU is ‘the greatest dream realised for human beings

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Originally Posted by Burney

I struggle with this argument, to be honest.1 I wanted out of the EU because it fundamentally undermines this country's legal and political sovereignty, is wholly unaccountable and is profoundly anti-democratic. When, for the first time in my life, I was given a say on whether I wanted this process to continue, I and millions like me grabbed the opportunity with both hands to say 'No'.

Your argument appears to be that we should not have taken that opportunity because our political classes hadn't the wit or wherewithal to know what to do with a vote to Leave (something I absolutely agree is the case). You seem to believe we should have stayed in a 2 union we loathe and believe to be utterly wrong simply because that would have been easier? What kind of an argument is that? Leave voters voted to leave the EU. The fact that politicians are making an almighty fvckery of doing so because that isn't what they want to do is NOT a reason not to have done so.

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1 This is laughable

2 No we don't a proportion do and a large proportion of that is fuelled by xenophobia and racism not logical thought

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Originally Posted by Luis Anaconda

You had a clear choice between stability and chaos and you chose chaos. Why you struggle with this now is because you are an intelligent but stubborn man who can see he was wrong but won't admit it?

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We'll be alright, la. Chill. This is the country of Nelson, of Drake, Wellington, Churchill, of Boudicca, of the Virgin Queen, of Barnes Wallis, Nobby Stiles and Syd James.

We'll be fine.

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Originally Posted by Sir C

We'll be alright, la. Chill. This is the country of Nelson, of Drake, Wellington, Churchill, of Boudicca, of the Virgin Queen, of Barnes Wallis, Nobby Stiles and Syd James.

We'll be fine.

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You wait til Scottish independence and they put up the price of whiskey

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Originally Posted by Sir C

We'll be alright, la. Chill. This is the country of Nelson, of Drake, Wellington, Churchill, of Boudicca, of the Virgin Queen, of Barnes Wallis, Nobby Stiles and Syd James.

We'll be fine.

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Newton, Faraday, Bowie, Shakespeare, Ray Parlour

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Originally Posted by Luis Anaconda

1 This is laughable

2 No we don't a proportion do and a large proportion of that is fuelled by xenophobia and racism not logical thought

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1 is not laughable, not really.

Imagine a state where neither the executive nor the head of state is elected and the only democratic accountability is through a partly elected legislative chamber. A system where your local vote for that chamber is only counted in real terms if it is in the majority..... where your only right ofrepresentation is through your local representative who is swallowed up by a party machine and legislative alliances to the extent that they cease to represent your views at all.....

What honest, humble democrat could possibly tolerate such a system?

And to top it all off we then went and joined the ****ing EU :)

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Originally Posted by Peter

1 is not laughable, not really.

Imagine a state where neither the executive nor the head of state is elected and the only democratic accountability is through a partly elected legislative chamber. A system where your local vote for that chamber is only counted in real terms if it is in the majority..... where your only right ofrepresentation is through your local representative who is swallowed up by a party machine and legislative alliances to the extent that they cease to represent your views at all.....

What honest, humble democrat could possibly tolerate such a system?

And to top it all off we then went and joined the ****ing EU :)

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Thank you p - I couldn't be bothered with writing all that

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Originally Posted by Luis Anaconda

You wait til Scottish independence and they put up the price of whiskey

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Whisky, la...

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Originally Posted by Peter

1 is not laughable, not really.

Imagine a state where neither the executive nor the head of state is elected and the only democratic accountability is through a partly elected legislative chamber. A system where your local vote for that chamber is only counted in real terms if it is in the majority..... where your only right ofrepresentation is through your local representative who is swallowed up by a party machine and legislative alliances to the extent that they cease to represent your views at all.....

What honest, humble democrat could possibly tolerate such a system?

And to top it all off we then went and joined the ****ing EU :)

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So your argument is that our domestic democratic system is flawed, so we should therefore happily tolerate the democratic deficit inherent to the EU?

This is an odd way of thinking, p.

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Originally Posted by IUFG

Whisky, la...

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Can't blame me if those proddie ****ers can't spell

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Originally Posted by Burney

So your argument is that our domestic democratic system is flawed, so we should therefore happily tolerate the democratic deficit inherent to the EU?

This is an odd way of thinking, p.

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Nope. My argument is that the moral high ground of democratic accountability adopted by you and your ilk would be a lot easier to swallow if you had ever raised similar concerns about the very similar lack of democracy in the very institutions you claim have been undermined by the EU.

THese institutions you cherish and protect managed, by your own admission, to keep the matter of EU membership off the political agenda for 40 years despite the evident demand for a discussion by a huge percentage of the voting public. Where is your democratic outrage at that system?

I acknowledge the deficit inherent in each but I would never demand we fix one and not the other. That is simply unbalanced.