We used to score goals like that under Arsène. [Archive] - AWIMB

Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult

11-09-2019, 07:04 PM

[QUOTE=Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult;4250705]Can we get rid of Dick now, please?[/QUOT

Cam we stop with the weird Arsene stuff please??? His time was up ...plain and simple.

Look at that.

We used to just have problems with the defence while the rest was fine.

Even though Dick's had a new goalie and 2 new CHs, and a new LB, we still can't defend.

The MF has gone to shît and now even the attack's starting to crumble.

Even if we don't get Arsène back, anyone could do better than Dick is.

I hate him and I hate AFTV for forcing him on us.

Burney

11-09-2019, 07:11 PM

[QUOTE=Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult;4250705]Can we get rid of Dick now, please?[/QUOT

Cam we stop with the weird Arsene stuff please??? His time was up ...plain and simple.

And yet no serious person could possibly suggest we wouldn’t be doing better than we are now if he were still in charge. :shrug:

Personally, I think Emery should be kept in place until the anti-AW ingrates have the decency to admit how utterly fùcking wrong they were to hound him out.

bbrian

11-09-2019, 07:16 PM

[QUOTE=bbrian;4250706]

And yet no serious person could possibly suggest we wouldn’t be doing better than we are now if he were still in charge. :shrug:

Personally, I think Emery should be kept in place until the anti-AW ingrates have the decency to admit how utterly fùcking wrong they were to hound him out.

Emery was the wrong guy to take over ...clearly
However , Emery was not in charge last time Leicester did us over in the league either

barrybueno

11-09-2019, 07:25 PM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250712]

Emery was the wrong guy to take over ...clearly
However , Emery was not in charge last time Leicester did us over in the league either

He was, it was 10 minutes ago :-D

Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult

11-09-2019, 07:28 PM

[QUOTE=bbrian;4250706]

And yet no serious person could possibly suggest we wouldn’t be doing better than we are now if he were still in charge. :shrug:

Personally, I think Emery should be kept in place until the anti-AW ingrates have the decency to admit how utterly fùcking wrong they were to hound him out.

No.

Sack Emery, AFTV and all the ingrates.

But you're totally right with the first sentence.

bbrian

11-09-2019, 07:29 PM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250712]

No.

Sack Emery, AFTV and all the ingrates.

But you're totally right with the first sentence.

So just to clear things up G...you seriously want Arsene back in charge somehow?

Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult

11-10-2019, 12:08 AM

[QUOTE=Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult;4250718]

So just to clear things up G...you seriously want Arsene back in charge somehow?

Mate,I want anyone, with the exception of Maureeenyo.

My missus could do a better job. Any of the street kids in Delhi could do a better job.

And Arsène would get us top 4 if he took over this week.

Pokster

11-11-2019, 08:05 AM

[QUOTE=bbrian;4250706]

And yet no serious person could possibly suggest we wouldn’t be doing better than we are now if he were still in charge. :shrug:

Personally, I think Emery should be kept in place until the anti-AW ingrates have the decency to admit how utterly fùcking wrong they were to hound him out.

Has everyone had a memory blank on how awful we were towards then end of AW's time in charge? Foir as bad as UE is doing, AW had 1 more point in his last 50 games and we were going backwards then

Billy Goat Sverige

11-11-2019, 08:22 AM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250712]

Has everyone had a memory blank on how awful we were towards then end of AW's time in charge? Foir as bad as UE is doing, AW had 1 more point in his last 50 games and we were going backwards then

Yes. The problem isn’t getting rid of Wenger, it’s hiring Emery. But this was to be expected really. It took Liverpool and Spurs a while to find a decent manager and we will probably have to suffer for years as they did. One thing is for sure, Emery isn’t that man.

WES

11-11-2019, 09:06 AM

[QUOTE=Pokster;4250731]

Yes. The problem isn’t getting rid of Wenger, it’s hiring Emery. But this was to be expected really. It took Liverpool and Spurs a while to find a decent manager and we will probably have to suffer for years as they did. One thing is for sure, Emery isn’t that man.

Yes, exactly right. Perhaps my memory is better than others (although at my age that would be surprising) but finishing 5th and 28 points off the title followed by 6th and 37 points behind the league winners doesn't fill me with longing for Wenger. Not to mention being 7 points closer to relegation than the title, the endless sideways passing and impotent possession, the terrible defending, the 5 and 6 goal hammerings where the players looked disorganised, demotivated and generally clueless and mos timportantly, failing season after season for exactly the same reasons. If you really long for Wenger, go to youtube and look up the 6-0 hammering at Chelsea, as bad as we are now, Emery hasn't come to close to that sort of debacle.

The squad looks the best it has in many years, I think, but the manager is clearly struggling badly. Give him until the end of the season and if it continues like this bring in someone new. There's still hope , you see. Under Wenger we had none.

AFC East

11-11-2019, 09:38 AM

[QUOTE=Billy Goat Sverige;4250732]

The squad looks the best it has in many years, I think, but the manager is clearly struggling badly. Give him until the end of the season and if it continues like this bring in someone new. There's still hope , you see. Under Wenger we had none.

We've performed worse in the last 50 games than the previous 50 games and yet the Premiership looks to be at the weakest level in many, many years. Spurs and Man U have surely reached a nadir. A decent, but by no means amazing Leicester team are somehow third.

The only hope I can see is that Emery is fired quickly. Our defence is the worst I have seen and I've watched a lot more Arsenal games than you have. You may wish to dwell on some shocking individual games under Wenger, but this is a week in, week out feature right now.

Emery has taken us backwards, there is no strategy, there isn't even a game by game plan. Our results have got worse. We've lost Ramsey, he has mismanaged Xhaka out of the door. He has no idea how to handle Ozil. Torreira has gone seriously backwards under his tutelage.

I am not asking for a Wenger return, but the idea that this clown was an upgrade is farcical and it has been clear for quite some time.

Burney

11-11-2019, 09:59 AM

Alberto Balsam Rodriguez

11-11-2019, 10:11 AM

[QUOTE=Billy Goat Sverige;4250732]

The question many of us asked when people were screaming to get rid of Wenger was who could replace him who would do better? We asked this because without someone better being available, getting rid of him was simply an irrational act.

Well we got rid of him and now we're worse off because his replacement is much, much worse. That means that one. There's really no getting away from that.

The assumption was that the problems could be solved with a replacement of manager.

It does appear that the problems go much deeper. Ownership being the major one, direction and culture of the club being the other. The class that Arsenal always had has been eroded away with this ownership.

Emery's appointment was underwhelming but look at who hired him, Ivan Gazidis. Gazidis claimed that Emery was the board's number one choice, a man that had laboured a PSG team with money coming out of its ears, to one French title in 2 seasons. We all know that this was *******s and he was probably 5th or 6th choice.

Burney

11-11-2019, 10:17 AM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250736]

The assumption was that the problems could be solved with a replacement of manager.

It does appear that the problems go much deeper. Ownership being the major one, direction and culture of the club being the other. The class that Arsenal always had has been eroded away with this ownership.

Emery's appointment was underwhelming but look at who hired him, Ivan Gazidis. Gazidis claimed that Emery was the board's number one choice, a man that had laboured a PSG team with money coming out of its ears, to one French title in 2 seasons. We all know that this was *******s and he was probably 5th or 6th choice.

I wouldn't disagree. The rot set in when Kroenke bought the club to milk its revenues while providing the minimum possible investment to keep those revenues alive (pretty much his business model with every sports team he's ever bought, so we could hardly pretend to be surprised).
So my point - that Wenger (who had no control over this process) was always the wrong target and sacking him was fundamentally irrational - stands. :shrug:

WES

11-11-2019, 10:25 AM

[QUOTE=WES;4250733]

We've performed worse in the last 50 games than the previous 50 games and yet the Premiership looks to be at the weakest level in many, many years. Spurs and Man U have surely reached a nadir. A decent, but by no means amazing Leicester team are somehow third.

The only hope I can see is that Emery is fired quickly. Our defence is the worst I have seen and I've watched a lot more Arsenal games than you have. You may wish to dwell on some shocking individual games under Wenger, but this is a week in, week out feature right now.

Emery has taken us backwards, there is no strategy, there isn't even a game by game plan. Our results have got worse. We've lost Ramsey, he has mismanaged Xhaka out of the door. He has no idea how to handle Ozil. Torreira has gone seriously backwards under his tutelage.

I am not asking for a Wenger return, but the idea that this clown was an upgrade is farcical and it has been clear for quite some time.

It wasn't clear at the end of last season when he clearly improved us in every statistical category. :shrug:

But I agree he is performing very poorly now, however I would still give him to the end of the year and then take a decision.

And the logic behind replacing Wenger was that we continued to fail season after season for the same reason with no sign that he was willing to change. The fact that his replacement may not be the person to take us forward doesn't invalidate the decision.

Alberto Balsam Rodriguez

11-11-2019, 10:36 AM

[QUOTE=Alberto Balsam Rodriguez;4250742]

I wouldn't disagree. The rot set in when Kroenke bought the club to milk its revenues while providing the minimum possible investment to keep those revenues alive (pretty much his business model with every sports team he's ever bought, so we could hardly pretend to be surprised).
So my point - that Wenger (who had no control over this process) was always the wrong target and sacking him was fundamentally irrational - stands. :shrug:

I'm not disagreeing with your point. It was only every likely to be clear to see that Kronke was the issue (to the average fan), when Wenger was not there to provide cover for this. The abuse that Wenger took was unfair and unacceptable and the manner in which he was forced out was classless. I personally think he needed to go for his own wellbeing and health. He owed the club nothing and owed the owners even less.

Hiring Emery was always going to makes Emery the target and deflect from the owners. He is in an impossible situation and lacks much the guile and skill of Wenger to deal with it. For this, i do feel sorry for Emery, forget for a minute what his credentials are as a coach. Hiring someone like a Pep, an Allegri or similar, would have exposed the ownership even more as it would come with an expectation to compete, so why would they go in that direction?

Results are dictating that Emery's time is up but the owners do not need to do this as they are happy with him being the target. As soon as the fans turn on the owners, Emery will be sacked.

Arsenal has lost its identity. It cannot regain this with the current ownership. Forget the manager, we need to get these parasites out, which is much harder.

Burney

11-11-2019, 10:37 AM

[QUOTE=AFC East;4250734]

It wasn't clear at the end of last season when he clearly improved us in every statistical category. :shrug:

But I agree he is performing very poorly now, however I would still give him to the end of the year and then take a decision.

And the logic behind replacing Wenger was that we continued to fail season after season for the same reason with no sign that he was willing to change. The fact that his replacement may not be the person to take us forward doesn't invalidate the decision.

So getting rid of someone on the grounds that they're 'failing', only for their replacement to redefine the concept of failure by being much, much worse doesn't for one moment make you wonder whether the initial decision may have been flawed, no?

Extraordinary.

Burney

11-11-2019, 10:39 AM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250744]

I'm not disagreeing with your point. It was only every likely to be clear to see that Kronke was the issue (to the average fan), when Wenger was not there to provide cover for this. The abuse that Wenger took was unfair and unacceptable and the manner in which he was forced out was classless. I personally think he needed to go for his own wellbeing and health. He owed the club nothing and owed the owners even less.

Hiring Emery was always going to makes Emery the target and deflect from the owners. He is in an impossible situation and lacks much the guile and skill of Wenger to deal with it. For this, i do feel sorry for Emery, forget for a minute what his credentials are as a coach. Hiring someone like a Pep, an Allegri or similar, would have exposed the ownership even more as it would come with an expectation to compete, so why would they go in that direction?

Results are dictating that Emery's time is up but the owners do not need to do this as they are happy with him being the target. As soon as the fans turn on the owners, Emery will be sacked.

Arsenal has lost its identity. It cannot regain this with the current ownership. Forget the manager, we need to get these parasites out, which is much harder.

Nothing to be done. Bloke owns the place. He can do what he likes. We're just punters. :shrug:

Herbert Augustus Chapman

11-11-2019, 11:08 AM

Burney

11-11-2019, 11:19 AM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250712]

boredom wasn't it?

Oh, but I never thought or suggested for one moment things would be better without Arsene and therefore have nothing for which to apologise. Indeed, I was pretty damn sure they'd be worse (and have been proved right).
I just couldn't abide the endless back-and-forth of seeing us perform about as well as could be expected season-in, season-out and AW then being pilloried by the serried ranks of arseholes we call fans. It was boring. Mischievously, I thought it might be rather fun if they got what they wished for. It is.

Alberto Balsam Rodriguez

11-11-2019, 11:20 AM

[QUOTE=Alberto Balsam Rodriguez;4250755]

Nothing to be done. Bloke owns the place. He can do what he likes. We're just punters. :shrug:

and here lies the Arsenal Football Club (1885-2011).

Herbert Augustus Chapman

11-11-2019, 11:28 AM

Mischievously, I thought it might be rather fun if they got what they wished for. It is.

I have the same feeling about leaving the EU with no deal. I'd rather like to be a fly on the wall when the witless proles discover they can no longer afford to fly over to Spain and take a week long shít on some hapless Spanish resort.

Sir C

11-11-2019, 11:31 AM

I have the same feeling about leaving the EU with no deal. I'd rather like to be a fly on the wall when the witless proles discover they can no longer afford to fly over to Spain and take a week long shít on some hapless Spanish resort.

Why won't they be able to afford to go to Spain?

AFC East

11-11-2019, 11:38 AM

Herbert Augustus Chapman

11-11-2019, 11:40 AM

Why won't they be able to afford to go to Spain?

Because Sterling, you know, the currency no-one ever went broke shorting, would plummet even below parity with The Euro. You know, the currency brexiteers have been promising will collapse (always any day now). It won't.

WES

11-11-2019, 11:41 AM

[QUOTE=WES;4250752]

So getting rid of someone on the grounds that they're 'failing', only for their replacement to redefine the concept of failure by being much, much worse doesn't for one moment make you wonder whether the initial decision may have been flawed, no?

Extraordinary.

You understand that replacing Wenger and replacing Wenger with Emery are different things right? You understand that one of those things might be right while the other is wrong?

I’d like to think you do.

Burney

11-11-2019, 11:54 AM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250756]

You understand that replacing Wenger and replacing Wenger with Emery are different things right? You understand that one of those things might be right while the other is wrong?

I’d like to think you do.

I see. So, if in January 2018 the board had said that they'd looked at replacing Wenger, but the best available option was a bit shít, so they'd put the decision on hold for another season until a better candidate was available, you'd have been fine with that, I assume? You wouldn't have píssed and moaned like a big fúcking baby about getting Wenger out at all?

:hehe:

WES

11-11-2019, 01:21 PM

[QUOTE=WES;4250778]

I see. So, if in January 2018 the board had said that they'd looked at replacing Wenger, but the best available option was a bit shít, so they'd put the decision on hold for another season until a better candidate was available, you'd have been fine with that, I assume? You wouldn't have píssed and moaned like a big fúcking baby about getting Wenger out at all?

:hehe:

What a bizarre argument.

If the club said that they couldn't find a manager better than Wenger I would have suggested they look a bit harder. If it happens that they got it wrong that doesn't in any way invalidate the decision to replace him. Wenger wasn't sacked because of how good Emery was perceived to be, he was sacked because his performance was deemed to be poor and that view is backed up by the statistics.

And, like Bunnell, you keep ignoring the facts that you don't like. Emery did improve us last year in virtually every way you could measure it. That is inconsistent with your oft stated view that he is much, much worse so I suggest you continue to ignore it. And it is you and people who feel like you who are the ones moaning and whining like little babies despite the fact that we are only 12 games into his second season.

The sensible people just want to give him a chance and then move on if he doesn't work out. That's how well managed football clubs work. They don't sack a manager the first chance they get nor do they persist with a manager who clearly is under-performing for nostalgic reasons. Not too sure that any of this is that difficult. :shrug:

Burney

11-11-2019, 02:38 PM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250780]

What a bizarre argument.

If the club said that they couldn't find a manager better than Wenger I would have suggested they look a bit harder. If it happens that they got it wrong that doesn't in any way invalidate the decision to replace him. Wenger wasn't sacked because of how good Emery was perceived to be, he was sacked because his performance was deemed to be poor and that view is backed up by the statistics.

And, like Bunnell, you keep ignoring the facts that you don't like. Emery did improve us last year in virtually every way you could measure it. That is inconsistent with your oft stated view that he is much, much worse so I suggest you continue to ignore it. And it is you and people who feel like you who are the ones moaning and whining like little babies despite the fact that we are only 12 games into his second season.

The sensible people just want to give him a chance and then move on if he doesn't work out. That's how well managed football clubs work. They don't sack a manager the first chance they get nor do they persist with a manager who clearly is under-performing for nostalgic reasons. Not too sure that any of this is that difficult. :shrug:

Quite a bold shout given that, in our 123-year history, we have never found a manager better than Wenger.

As to the rest of your argument, it's drivel. To take just one point, the idea that Emery improved us in every area is laughable because if that were the case, we would be better this season - whereas we are in fact a complete fúcking shambles. That can only be due to the manager. Or are you suggesting he's gone from being good last season to utterly hopeless this season?

And since the only significant player we lost between last season and this is the one you've assured us for years was shít, it's doubly mysterious. Almost like you have zero fúcking idea what you're talking about. :rubchin:

The decision to appoint Emery was contingent on Wenger being turfed out. The one decision stems entirely from the other. Watching those of you who squealed like pigs for this to happen squirming and refusing to own the mess you've helped create is hilarious.

Pokster

11-11-2019, 02:44 PM

[QUOTE=WES;4250815]

Quite a bold shout given that, in our 123-year history, we have never found a manager better than Wenger.

As to the rest of your argument, it's drivel. To take just one point, the idea that Emery improved us in every area is laughable because if that were the case, we would be better this season - whereas we are in fact a complete fúcking shambles. That can only be due to the manager. Or are you suggesting he's gone from being good last season to utterly hopeless this season?

And since the only significant player we lost between last season and this is the one you've assured us for years was shít, it's doubly mysterious. Almost like you have zero fúcking idea what you're talking about. :rubchin:

The decision to appoint Emery was contingent on Wenger being turfed out. The one decision stems entirely from the other. Watching those of you who squealed like pigs for this to happen squirming and refusing to own the mess you've helped create is hilarious.

I would suggest we have had quite a few managers better than AW was in his later years...which is why we needed a change, that isn't too hard to understand is it?

IUFG

11-11-2019, 02:46 PM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250825]

I would suggest we have had quite a few managers better than AW was in his later years...which is why we needed a change, that isn't too hard to understand is it?

Was Don Howe, at his (ahem) best, betterer than Wenger at his worst?

Pokster

11-11-2019, 02:48 PM

[QUOTE=Pokster;4250830]

Was Don Howe, at his (ahem) best, betterer than Wenger at his worst?

You could argue that results wise Rioch was better than AW towards the end...in those days the board had a plan so didn't mind getting rid of someone if they had someone better (in their opinion) lined up...see Lukic v Seaman

WES

11-11-2019, 02:49 PM

[QUOTE=WES;4250815]

Quite a bold shout given that, in our 123-year history, we have never found a manager better than Wenger.

As to the rest of your argument, it's drivel. To take just one point, the idea that Emery improved us in every area is laughable because if that were the case, we would be better this season - whereas we are in fact a complete fúcking shambles. That can only be due to the manager. Or are you suggesting he's gone from being good last season to utterly hopeless this season?

And since the only significant player we lost between last season and this is the one you've assured us for years was shít, it's doubly mysterious. Almost like you have zero fúcking idea what you're talking about. :rubchin:

The decision to appoint Emery was contingent on Wenger being turfed out. The one decision stems entirely from the other. Watching those of you who squealed like pigs for this to happen squirming and refusing to own the mess you've helped create is hilarious.

I'm afraid this is nonsense and the only person squealing is you and people like you. Wenger was sacked because of a consistent degradation in results over many years followed by two consecutive seasons in which we missed the CL including his last season in which one of the ten richest clubs in the world finished 6th in their domestic league and with a points total closer to relegation than to the title.

Emery was then deemed to be the best available replacement. If that is the wrong choice we will move on to the next manager until we get it right. Wenger, meanwhile, is still unemployed. This is another fact that you need to continue to ignore.

Sir C

11-11-2019, 02:49 PM

[QUOTE=Pokster;4250830]

Was Don Howe, at his (ahem) best, betterer than Wenger at his worst?

No. No he was not.

Actually Emery's team reminds me very much of a Don Howe team. Absolutely no imagination going forward whatsoever, and liable to concede pretty much any time.

IUFG

11-11-2019, 02:52 PM

[QUOTE=IUFG;4250833]

No. No he was not.

Actually Emery's team reminds me very much of a Don Howe team. Absolutely no imagination going forward whatsoever, and liable to concede pretty much any time.

oh, what about this then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnXNVGY3zhc

Burney

11-11-2019, 02:53 PM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250825]

I would suggest we have had quite a few managers better than AW was in his later years...which is why we needed a change, that isn't too hard to understand is it?

Our trophy cabinet and an average league position of 2.74 over 22 years say you're wrong.

Burney

11-11-2019, 03:00 PM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250825]

I'm afraid this is nonsense and the only person squealing is you and people like you. Wenger was sacked because of a consistent degradation in results over many years followed by two consecutive seasons in which we missed the CL including his last season in which one of the ten richest clubs in the world finished 6th in their domestic league and with a points total closer to relegation than to the title.

Emery was then deemed to be the best available replacement. If that is the wrong choice we will move on to the next manager until we get it right. Wenger, meanwhile, is still unemployed. This is another fact that you need to continue to ignore.

No, sorry. You can't demand our greatest-ever manager is sacked and then wash your hands of the fúck-up that decision creates. That's just a cowardly abdication of responsibility.
And the fact is you know it. Otherwise you wouldn't have spent so long trying to convince us that Emery wasn't shít. You've been his biggest cheerleader for a season and a half because you were desperate for him to succeed in order to vindicate the decision to get rid of Wenger. He hasn't and now you're trying to pretend that the current situation has nothing to do with you and you'd have done it all differently. Well I'm not going to let you get away with it, I'm afraid. Every member of the Wengerahti bears responsibility for this - you just don't like being called on it.

Ash

11-11-2019, 03:01 PM

Wenger, meanwhile, is still unemployed.

'E's not unemployed. 'E's restin'.

Pokster

11-11-2019, 03:05 PM

[QUOTE=Pokster;4250830]

Our trophy cabinet and an average league position of 2.74 over 22 years say you're wrong.

Which part of later years do you fail to understand?.... he would never have been sacked if you look at his whole career, but strangely enough management doesn't work that way ;Rolleyes:

WES

11-11-2019, 03:07 PM

[QUOTE=WES;4250837]

No, sorry. You can't demand our greatest-ever manager is sacked and then wash your hands of the fúck-up that decision creates. That's just a cowardly abdication of responsibility.
And the fact is you know it. Otherwise you wouldn't have spent so long trying to convince us that Emery wasn't shít. You've been his biggest cheerleader for a season and a half because you were desperate for him to succeed in order to vindicate the decision to get rid of Wenger. He hasn't and now you're trying to pretend that the current situation has nothing to do with you and you'd have done it all differently. Well I'm not going to let you get away with it, I'm afraid. Every member of the Wengerahti bears responsibility for this - you just don't like being called on it.

Good lord, I don't know where to start. I never said I would have have done it differently. I said the opposite. The decision was the correct one and I continue to support it because sacking Wenger and hiring Emery were different decisions for different reasons. The Wenger decision was correct, the Emery decision is still open for debate although I agree it looks increasingly like it was a mistake.

And I have always been objective about Emery. His start with the club was excellent, and I said so. He finished the season very badly, and I said so. He has performed poorly this year, and I've said so.

This is boring now, you seem unable to read a post and reply with an accurate, logical point of view so I'm going to assume the rage you feel is blocking your brain waves.

WES

11-11-2019, 03:08 PM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250841]

Which part of later years do you fail to understand?.... he would never have been sacked if you look at his whole career, but strangely enough management doesn't work that way ;Rolleyes:

I was going to point that out to him but thought it best to leave that to you.

Given his profession, I would have thought that reading would be one of his strengths. :-)

Pokster

11-11-2019, 03:11 PM

[QUOTE=Pokster;4250848]

I was going to point that out to him but thought it best to leave that to you.

Given his profession, I would have thought that reading would be one of his strengths. :-)

Using B's reasoning, David Moyes should still be in charge of Man U as they don't seem to be doing better since he left....

Burney

11-11-2019, 03:13 PM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250841]

Which part of later years do you fail to understand?.... he would never have been sacked if you look at his whole career, but strangely enough management doesn't work that way ;Rolleyes:

Ah, yes. Which 'later years' would these be? I'm guessing you'll pick and choose them to suit your argument (while ignoring three FA Cups, of course).

It seems remarkable to assert that a man has set such a stellar standard over two decades that when he started to fall below it (to no small degree through external factors such as lack of resources and availability of players), you castigate him for it without any proof that anyone could have done better. :shrug:

Burney

11-11-2019, 03:16 PM

[QUOTE=WES;4250850]

Using B's reasoning, David Moyes should still be in charge of Man U as they don't seem to be doing better since he left....

Yes, the comparison of a manager who won more for us than anyone else ever and David Moyes - who won nothing for United ever - is definitely a valid one.

:shakehead:

Pokster

11-11-2019, 03:18 PM

[QUOTE=Pokster;4250848]

It seems remarkable to assert that a man has set such a stellar standard over two decades that when he started to fall below it (to no small degree through external factors such as lack of resources and availability of players), you castigate him for it without any proof that anyone could have done better. :shrug:

Lack of resources?? He broke our transfer record twice in about 9 months and was happy for 1 player to be paid £20m a year.

You seem to be failing in reasoning, sacking AW was 1 decision, they assumed the person they brought in would have improved us.
getting UE was a different decision, he hasn't proved to be better, that is down to him and the poor second decsion by the board.

Using your reasoning I guess we shouldn't sack UE as we can't prove that someone would do a better job?

And how could anyone prove that someone else could do a better job as , in case you hadn't noticed, I don't own the club and couldn't actually make the appointment.

I believe you have lost the plot

WES

11-11-2019, 03:20 PM

[QUOTE=WES;4250850]

Using B's reasoning, David Moyes should still be in charge of Man U as they don't seem to be doing better since he left....

I think the real subtext here is that people like Burney love to hate large portions of our support as they consider them to be uneducated and unsophisticated yobs.

Wenger being sacked gives them another reason to do so.

Hence the revisionism re the latter Wenger years and the the over the top criticism of whomever was brought in next. It was inevitable. Sadly for the club, Emery does look to be a bad fit. But rather than accept that Wenger needed to go and support the club in its efforts to sign a new manager, they turn on those they consider responsible and engage in a slanging match because it makes them feel better.

Oh well, I'm looking forward to seeing if Emery can turn this around and if he can't it will be interesting to see who's up next. All good fun imo.

Pokster

11-11-2019, 03:21 PM

[QUOTE=Pokster;4250848]

Ah, yes. Which 'later years' would these be? I'm guessing you'll pick and choose them to suit your argument (while ignoring three FA Cups, of course).

It seems remarkable to assert that a man has set such a stellar standard over two decades that when he started to fall below it (to no small degree through external factors such as lack of resources and availability of players), you castigate him for it without any proof that anyone could have done better. :shrug:

Oh goody, we've become a cup team, we are the new Spurs/ I'm using league positioning which is all you can really judge someone on

WES

11-11-2019, 03:22 PM

[QUOTE=Pokster;4250848]

Ah, yes. Which 'later years' would these be? I'm guessing you'll pick and choose them to suit your argument (while ignoring three FA Cups, of course).

It seems remarkable to assert that a man has set such a stellar standard over two decades that when he started to fall below it (to no small degree through external factors such as lack of resources and availability of players), you castigate him for it without any proof that anyone could have done better. :shrug:

What sort of proof would you accept that someone could have done better, out of interest?

IUFG

11-11-2019, 03:35 PM

Burney

11-11-2019, 03:42 PM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250852]

Lack of resources?? He broke our transfer record twice in about 9 months and was happy for 1 player to be paid £20m a year.

You seem to be failing in reasoning, sacking AW was 1 decision, they assumed the person they brought in would have improved us.
getting UE was a different decision, he hasn't proved to be better, that is down to him and the poor second decsion by the board.

Using your reasoning I guess we shouldn't sack UE as we can't prove that someone would do a better job?

And how could anyone prove that someone else could do a better job as , in case you hadn't noticed, I don't own the club and couldn't actually make the appointment.

I believe you have lost the plot

Well we know someone could do a better job than Emery because Wenger consistently did.

Lack of resource is relative. Over the last 10 years, we have the fifth highest net spending on players and our transfer records have been lower than those of our rivals. Despite that, Wenger consistently got us to finish higher than fifth, with only a blip in his last couple of seasons. That is good management. It's not up to his 2003/4 standard, of course, but the league has changed in that time.

Emery got us fifth last year (which is par) and this year will be worse. That is bad management.

As for your sneering about 'a cup team', you sound unbelievably spoilt. It also suggests you also must have hated George Graham's last four years at the club, when we won fúck all other than cups.

Burney

11-11-2019, 03:45 PM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250852]

What sort of proof would you accept that someone could have done better, out of interest?

Well how about a track record of consistent success that exceeded expectations and financial outlay over a number of years? That would at least have offered a compelling argument.
As it was, we got rid of Wenger with no plan to appease the fans and then found ourselves scraping the barrel to find a replacement - which was idiotic and undignified.

IUFG

11-11-2019, 03:52 PM

WES

11-11-2019, 03:57 PM

[QUOTE=WES;4250858]

Well how about a track record of consistent success that exceeded expectations and financial outlay over a number of years? That would at least have offered a compelling argument.
As it was, we got rid of Wenger with no plan to appease the fans and then found ourselves scraping the barrel to find a replacement - which was idiotic and undignified.

He won three consecutive ELs at Seville, which is a consistent record of success that would have far exceed Seville's expectations and which is 3 more European cups than Wenger won in 22 years at Arsenal.

There was plenty of evidence that Emery was a good choice, Burney, if it doesn't work out then we move on to the next choice. I prefer that to failing for the same reasons year after year.

Burney

11-11-2019, 03:58 PM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250863]

TBF, UE had a decent track record before joining us.
Notwithstanding the PSG defeat at Barca bit.

He won a few cups (which Pokster despises) with Sevilla, but didn't tear up any trees with regard to league position other than a third place with Valencia. Certainly not a track record to suggest you should replace your greatest ever manager. :shrug:

Ash

11-11-2019, 04:00 PM

Could you gentlemen kindly fix the tags on the posts so the quote attributions are not messy and wrong?

Thanks in anticipation. :thumbup:

WES

11-11-2019, 04:00 PM

[QUOTE=Pokster;4250854]

Wenger had to go as his omnipotent role was a bit of an obstruction in the restructuring of the club's management.

Yes, this is the other aspect of his replacement that people often disregard. It is entirely subjective of course but my view is that the squad, in particular the young players, is better than it has been for many years. Wenger was never going to accept losing control of the player acquisition part of his job.

From that perspective we have taken a step forward, now we just need the right manager.

IUFG

11-11-2019, 04:14 PM

[QUOTE=IUFG;4250864]

He won a few cups (which Pokster despises) with Sevilla, but didn't tear up any trees with regard to league position other than a third place with Valencia. Certainly not a track record to suggest you should replace your greatest ever manager. :shrug:

He placed 1st in the league with PSG.

Yes, I know.

Yesterday Once More

11-11-2019, 04:19 PM

[QUOTE=WES;4250815]

Quite a bold shout given that, in our 123-year history, we have never found a manager better than Wenger.

As to the rest of your argument, it's drivel. To take just one point, the idea that Emery improved us in every area is laughable because if that were the case, we would be better this season - whereas we are in fact a complete fúcking shambles. That can only be due to the manager. Or are you suggesting he's gone from being good last season to utterly hopeless this season?

And since the only significant player we lost between last season and this is the one you've assured us for years was shít, it's doubly mysterious. Almost like you have zero fúcking idea what you're talking about. :rubchin:

The decision to appoint Emery was contingent on Wenger being turfed out. The one decision stems entirely from the other. Watching those of you who squealed like pigs for this to happen squirming and refusing to own the mess you've helped create is hilarious.

Dear oh dear. Herbert Chapman is widely regarded as the greatest football manager of all time. Having won the league in three successive seasons with Huddersfield. he took over at Arsenal who had won nothing, and within a decade we were the most famous club in the world.

By all means recognise Wenger's achievements in the first half of his reign but don't talk such utter tosh.

Burney

11-11-2019, 05:17 PM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250825]

Dear oh dear. Herbert Chapman is widely regarded as the greatest football manager of all time. Having won the league in three successive seasons with Huddersfield. he took over at Arsenal who had won nothing, and within a decade we were the most famous club in the world.

By all means recognise Wenger's achievements in the first half of his reign but don't talk such utter tosh.

No. He isn't.

Burney

11-11-2019, 05:18 PM

He placed 1st in the league with PSG.

Yes, I know.

:hehe: I think I'd have had a fair chance of managing PSG to Ligue 1 success that season, iufg.

Pokster

11-12-2019, 07:45 AM

[QUOTE=Pokster;4250854]

Well we know someone could do a better job than Emery because Wenger consistently did.

Lack of resource is relative. Over the last 10 years, we have the fifth highest net spending on players and our transfer records have been lower than those of our rivals. Despite that, Wenger consistently got us to finish higher than fifth, with only a blip in his last couple of seasons. That is good management. It's not up to his 2003/4 standard, of course, but the league has changed in that time.

Emery got us fifth last year (which is par) and this year will be worse. That is bad management.

As for your sneering about 'a cup team', you sound unbelievably spoilt. It also suggests you also must have hated George Graham's last four years at the club, when we won fúck all other than cups.

I do love the fact you com,pletely disregard all the utter crap in your own posts and try to point score over my comments about a cup team. We used to challenge for the title, we have been nowhere near that for years, we were getting further and further away but you think we shouldn't sack him because he was great 15 years ago. I suggest you get another hobby because this football malarky doesn't seem to suit you.

Burney

11-12-2019, 09:10 AM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250862]

I do love the fact you com,pletely disregard all the utter crap in your own posts and try to point score over my comments about a cup team. We used to challenge for the title, we have been nowhere near that for years, we were getting further and further away but you think we shouldn't sack him because he was great 15 years ago. I suggest you get another hobby because this football malarky doesn't seem to suit you.

We didn't get further away because AW became a bad manager, we got further away because our rivals got richer, more numerous and better than us. We won titles when it was either us or United. When Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City, etc came into the mix as serious contenders, it became infinitely more difficult for us to compete. In fact, the only season in recent years when we came even vaguely close was 2015-16, when literally all the usual suspects performed well below their capabilities and let Leicester in.

This is so blindingly obvious that it really shouldn't need saying.

redgunamo

11-12-2019, 09:16 AM

You're not going to win this one, W; B has two older sisters..

[QUOTE=Burney;4250863]

He won three consecutive ELs at Seville, which is a consistent record of success that would have far exceed Seville's expectations and which is 3 more European cups than Wenger won in 22 years at Arsenal.

There was plenty of evidence that Emery was a good choice, Burney, if it doesn't work out then we move on to the next choice. I prefer that to failing for the same reasons year after year.

Pokster

11-12-2019, 09:28 AM

Burney

11-12-2019, 10:17 AM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250880]

So we haven't got worse, everyone else has got better, oh that's ok then

Well, yes. :shrug: Your analysis of Wenger's performance seems to be predicated on the idea that we exist in a bubble wherein our success can only be measured against what we've done in the past with no reference to the hugely increased relative strength (both footballing and financial) of our opponents. That is obviously absurd.

IUFG

11-12-2019, 10:26 AM

[QUOTE=Pokster;4250886]

Well, yes. :shrug: Your analysis of Wenger's performance seems to be predicated on the idea that we exist in a bubble wherein our success can only be measured against what we've done in the past with no reference to the hugely increased relative strength (both footballing and financial) of our opponents. That is obviously absurd.

tbf, Lester pricked that bubble.
Yes, I know they spent £££££££££££££££££££££m's.
So did we.

Burney

11-12-2019, 10:28 AM

[QUOTE=Burney;4250893]

tbf, Lester pricked that bubble.
Yes, I know they spent £££££££££££££££££££££m's.
So did we.

Not really. As I pointed out, that season was a ridiculous anomaly in which absolutely everyone else massively underperformed, while Leicester massively overperformed. It's an outlier that means little or nothing in broader terms.

IUFG

11-12-2019, 10:36 AM

[QUOTE=IUFG;4250898]

Not really. As I pointed out, that season was a ridiculous anomaly in which absolutely everyone else massively underperformed, while Leicester massively overperformed. It's an outlier that means little or nothing in broader terms.

Lester are back up there challenging again.
Time will tell if their championship win was a 'blip'.

WES

11-12-2019, 10:44 AM

[QUOTE=Pokster;4250878]

We didn't get further away because AW became a bad manager, we got further away because our rivals got richer, more numerous and better than us. We won titles when it was either us or United. When Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City, etc came into the mix as serious contenders, it became infinitely more difficult for us to compete. In fact, the only season in recent years when we came even vaguely close was 2015-16, when literally all the usual suspects performed well below their capabilities and let Leicester in.

This is so blindingly obvious that it really shouldn't need saying.

Liverpool didn't come into the mix because of an injection of external money.

They came into the mix - and are now miles ahead of us - because they bought the right players and hired the right manager.

A manager who likely would have been available to us but for those who refused to recognise how poorly Wenger was performing at the time.

The financial doping was always a poor excuse that would eventually be shown to be just that. Leicester and Liverpool have drawn a line under that nonsense quite nicely.