So it looks as though we're going to have an election.

[Burney]

Meanwhile, Labour - who have been screaming for an election now for 12 months and will currently complain to anyone who'll listen about our 'unelected' PM - are suddenly talking about not voting for an election because they're pretty sure Boris will walk it.
This could be possibly Labour's most incoherent position yet, surpassing even their stunning 'we will negotiate a new Brexit deal and then campaign against it' shítshow. :hehe:

[Pokster]

Meanwhile, Labour - who have been screaming for an election now for 12 months and will currently complain to anyone who'll listen about our 'unelected' PM - are suddenly talking about not voting for an election because they're pretty sure Boris will walk it.
This could be possibly Labour's most incoherent position yet, surpassing even their stunning 'we will negotiate a new Brexit deal and then campaign against it' shítshow. :hehe:

Labour wanted an election under their terms, if BJ trys to call an election because it is what he wants then Labour are in a very difficult position.

[Burney]

Labour wanted an election under their terms, if BJ trys to call an election because it is what he wants then Labour are in a very difficult position.

Correct. They wanted a GE when May (who was electoral poison) was in charge - or after No Deal to exploit any difficulties that arose. They're terrified of one now against Boris (whose personal popularity ratings are surging).

Problem is, no Leader of the Opposition can reject the chance of an election and hope to retain any credibility - let alone be able to get away with wibbling a load of old balls about 'coups' and 'An unelected Prime Minister' (don't get me started on that, btw).

Mind you, it's questionable how much credibility Corbyn still has to lose.

[Pokster]

Correct. They wanted a GE when May (who was electoral poison) was in charge - or after No Deal to exploit any difficulties that arose. They're terrified of one now against Boris (whose personal popularity ratings are surging).

Problem is, no Leader of the Opposition can reject the chance of an election and hope to retain any credibility - let alone be able to get away with wibbling a load of old balls about 'coups' and 'An unelected Prime Minister' (don't get me started on that, btw).

Mind you, it's questionable how much credibility Corbyn still has to lose.

Not often I agree with Tony B, Labour shoudl avoid an election as a Brexit election, they should be pushing for a second Ref if that is what they actually think......New leader syndrome is likely to see a Tory bounce and the real winners would be the Lib Dems and the Tory party.....Labour likely to be squeezed as nobody knows what they actually stand for (Tory party are split but the power is now with leave)

[Burney]

Not often I agree with Tony B, Labour shoudl avoid an election as a Brexit election, they should be pushing for a second Ref if that is what they actually think......New leader syndrome is likely to see a Tory bounce and the real winners would be the Lib Dems and the Tory party.....Labour likely to be squeezed as nobody knows what they actually stand for (Tory party are split but the power is now with leave)

Consider how it would look, though. Not brave enough to force a Vote of No Confidence or agree to an election - essentially keeping a Tory Government in place by refusing to go to the polls. Not sure how you come back from that. Basically, if the Government throws down the gauntlet, the Opposition pretty much has to accept the challenge or become a laughing stock.

[PSRB]

Consider how it would look, though. Not brave enough to force a Vote of No Confidence or agree to an election - essentially keeping a Tory Government in place by refusing to go to the polls. Not sure how you come back from that. Basically, if the Government throws down the gauntlet, the Opposition pretty much has to accept the challenge or become a laughing stock.

are they not already?

[Burney]

are they not already?

Sure, but their support is brainwashed into the belief that Magic Grandpa will storm to victory as soon as the people get a chance to vote for him. His whole schtick is predicated on this idea, in fact. Take away that key plank of magical thinking by showing you're scared to face the tories in an election and the whole thing might come crashing down.

[WES]

Sure, but their support is brainwashed into the belief that Magic Grandpa will storm to victory as soon as the people get a chance to vote for him. His whole schtick is predicated on this idea, in fact. Take away that key plank of magical thinking by showing you're scared to face the tories in an election and the whole thing might come crashing down.

Be interesting to see what Labour does if they get whitewashed in the GE. The membership rule changes allowed the unions to take control of the party hence thieving blockheads like Ian Lavery and communists like McDonnell in their positions.

But even if they get hammered, the unions will still be in control. Not sure they would allow a return to *New Labour* but even they might realise how fruitless it is to persist with the red flag brigade. Maybe. A more palatable version of Corbyn, if such a thing exists?

Let's hope we find out.

[Burney]

Be interesting to see what Labour does if they get whitewashed in the GE. The membership rule changes allowed the unions to take control of the party hence thieving blockheads like Ian Lavery and communists like McDonnell in their positions.

But even if they get hammered, the unions will still be in control. Not sure they would allow a return to *New Labour* but even they might realise how fruitless it is to persist with the red flag brigade. Maybe. A more palatable version of Corbyn, if such a thing exists?

Let's hope we find out.

If the defeat is bad enough (esp if Brexit Party hit the northern heartlands hard), it could reduce Labour to a relative rump and get rid of a lot of moderate MPs, which, while it would make the party more politically coherent, would also make it smaller and with less broad appeal. It could thus carry on being mentally leftist while the LibDems or a new party hoovered up the moderate supporters.

[Burney]

Be interesting to see what Labour does if they get whitewashed in the GE. The membership rule changes allowed the unions to take control of the party hence thieving blockheads like Ian Lavery and communists like McDonnell in their positions.

But even if they get hammered, the unions will still be in control. Not sure they would allow a return to *New Labour* but even they might realise how fruitless it is to persist with the red flag brigade. Maybe. A more palatable version of Corbyn, if such a thing exists?

Let's hope we find out.

LOL! Corbyn's just said he'll back an early general election "in any circumstances".

Imagine Tony Blair thinking that him saying something might persuade Corbyn to go along with him! :hehe:

[AFC East]

Consider how it would look, though. Not brave enough to force a Vote of No Confidence or agree to an election - essentially keeping a Tory Government in place by refusing to go to the polls. Not sure how you come back from that. Basically, if the Government throws down the gauntlet, the Opposition pretty much has to accept the challenge or become a laughing stock.

Good for the country. We have the worst government for 40+ years and that's only possible because we have the worst opposition in living memory. This should finish off the opposition and hopefully replace it with one that holds the government to some form of account.

[IUFG]

Meanwhile, Labour - who have been screaming for an election now for 12 months and will currently complain to anyone who'll listen about our 'unelected' PM - are suddenly talking about not voting for an election because they're pretty sure Boris will walk it.
This could be possibly Labour's most incoherent position yet, surpassing even their stunning 'we will negotiate a new Brexit deal and then campaign against it' shítshow. :hehe:

Looks like Boris was talked out of calling a GE by someone...

[Pokster]

Looks like Boris was talked out of calling a GE by someone...

Well he can't call an election......needs 2/3 of parliament to vote for it or he needs to get rid of the fixed term Parliamant (majority of 1) to enable him to call one when he likes

[Tony C]

I think we need to check with Gina Miller first to see if an election is ok with her imo

[Ash]

i think we need to check with gina miller first to see if an election is ok with her imo

looooool!!!!!

[Rich]

Well he can't call an election......needs 2/3 of parliament to vote for it or he needs to get rid of the fixed term Parliamant (majority of 1) to enable him to call one when he likes

Can someone summarise this mess for me, please? I have lost interest in this story which has now been going on for years.

MPs have put this legislation forward that will mean Boris has to ask the EU to extend the deadline to 31/01 (if it wins, as expected). Boris will then call a GE (or not as I have read in other places?) in the hope of essentially ignoring this legislation (rather makes a mockery of legislation).

If he does hold a GE and wins then will he not be in the same issue as he is now? If he loses then we'll likely remain with Comrade Corbyn at the helm?

[WES]

Can someone summarise this mess for me, please? I have lost interest in this story which has now been going on for years.

MPs have put this legislation forward that will mean Boris has to ask the EU to extend the deadline to 31/01 (if it wins, as expected). Boris will then call a GE (or not as I have read in other places?) in the hope of essentially ignoring this legislation (rather makes a mockery of legislation).

If he does hold a GE and wins then will he not be in the same issue as he is now? If he loses then we'll likely remain with Comrade Corbyn at the helm?

I saw the most amazing interview with this Barry Gardiner chap who assured me that the country did not vote to leave with no deal. He seemed utterly certain that this was true.

Funny because when I voted I saw a Remain option and a Leave option with no qualification for either. If I voted Remain and the EU took decisions I didn't like, I was stuck with it. If I voted Leave and I didn't like the way we left, I was stuck with it. I was pretty certain that how it was going to work, wouldn't someone have to be awfully thick to think otherwise?

I now we have a situation where the only offer from the EU has been rejected by Parliament 3 times so the only options left are to Remain or to Leave with no deal. And yet somehow Parliament have convinced themselves leaving with no deal is not what the public want.

Honestly, you couldn't make this lot up if you tried. :rolleyes:

[PSRB]

I saw the most amazing interview with this Barry Gardiner chap who assured me that the country did not vote to leave with no deal. He seemed utterly certain that this was true.

Funny because when I voted I saw a Remain option and a Leave option with no qualification for either. If I voted Remain and the EU took decisions I didn't like, I was stuck with it. If I voted Leave and I didn't like the way we left, I was stuck with it. I was pretty certain that how it was going to work, wouldn't someone have to be awfully thick to think otherwise?

I now we have a situation where the only offer from the EU has been rejected by Parliament 3 times so the only options left are to Remain or to Leave with no deal. And yet somehow Parliament have convinced themselves leaving with no deal is not what the public want.

Honestly, you couldn't make this lot up if you tried. :rolleyes:

:nod: I voted Leave and that's what I expected to happen. It really didn't seem much more complicated than that. In fact, I assumed we'd leave with no deal and would then negotiate separate deals :shrug:

[Rich]

I saw the most amazing interview with this Barry Gardiner chap who assured me that the country did not vote to leave with no deal. He seemed utterly certain that this was true.

Funny because when I voted I saw a Remain option and a Leave option with no qualification for either. If I voted Remain and the EU took decisions I didn't like, I was stuck with it. If I voted Leave and I didn't like the way we left, I was stuck with it. I was pretty certain that how it was going to work, wouldn't someone have to be awfully thick to think otherwise?

I now we have a situation where the only offer from the EU has been rejected by Parliament 3 times so the only options left are to Remain or to Leave with no deal. And yet somehow Parliament have convinced themselves leaving with no deal is not what the public want.

Honestly, you couldn't make this lot up if you tried. :rolleyes:

I am not sure that the leave campaign really thought things through (EU not letting them have their way on the Irish border issue/divorce bill/where numbers like £350m a week/month/year for the NHS actually came from). The vast majority certainly wouldn't have a clue about the consequences of leaving without a deal.

All of the above takes this back to Cameron. How he decided to let the people make decisions that most are too ill-informed to make is beyond me. Do we not have MPs for exactly this reason - to make the sensible decisions for the country?

[IUFG]

All of the above takes this back to Cameron. How he decided to let the people make decisions that most are too ill-informed to make is beyond me. Do we not have MPs for exactly this reason - to make the sensible decisions for the country?

The UK is a democracy, not an electocracy, r. Well, I think it might be a democratic system we have...

[Ash]

All of the above takes this back to Cameron. How he decided to let the people make decisions that most are too ill-informed to make is beyond me. Do we not have MPs for exactly this reason - to make the sensible decisions for the country?

Can I skip the deconstruction of this piece of demos-phobic ****tery and proceed straight to the vitriolic, personal abuse?

[Burney]

I am not sure that the leave campaign really thought things through (EU not letting them have their way on the Irish border issue/divorce bill/where numbers like £350m a week/month/year for the NHS actually came from). The vast majority certainly wouldn't have a clue about the consequences of leaving without a deal.

All of the above takes this back to Cameron. How he decided to let the people make decisions that most are too ill-informed to make is beyond me. Do we not have MPs for exactly this reason - to make the sensible decisions for the country?

It's really not that complicated, though. People decided they want to live in an independent, self-governing and above all democratic nation state rather than be in the EU.

That's it. The issue itself is remarkably simple and we are all legitimately capable of making a choice about it.

[Burney]

The UK is a democracy, not an electocracy, r. Well, I think it might be a democratic system we have...

Quite. This notion that a vote for an MP is a blank cheque is a particularly stupid one.

[Rich]

It's really not that complicated, though. People decided they want to live in an independent, self-governing and above all democratic nation state rather than be in the EU.

That's it. The issue itself is remarkably simple and we are all legitimately capable of making a choice about it.

I appreciate that is why you voted Leave. However, I think the majority of your fellow leavers may have voted based on some mis-guided beliefs of what a Post-Brexit land would look like.

[IUFG]

I appreciate that is why you voted Leave. However, I think the majority of your fellow leavers may have voted based on some mis-guided beliefs of what a Post-Brexit land would look like.

and here we have the infinite loop . . . a Moebius strip of Remainers who believe they are correct and Leavers are thick / misinformed.

As, pretty much, an indifferent person on such matters, I find the psychology of the whole Brexit thing marvellous fun.

[Tony C]

A no deal Brexit will hurt the EU far more but why would they even consider renegotiating a deal if the threat isn’t real.

To be honest...we should’ve done this far sooner.

[Tony C]

Remainers are led by Comrade Corbyn, former escort Gina Miller, that traitor Blair and head of social media Jorge.

A fine trustworthy group imo

[Ash]

I appreciate that is why you voted Leave. However, I think the majority of your fellow leavers may have voted based on some mis-guided beliefs of what a Post-Brexit land would look like.

Are you quite sure you understand what a future EU land would look like? And how much say you or anyone except a ruling elite will have in what that looks like?

[Burney]

I appreciate that is why you voted Leave. However, I think the majority of your fellow leavers may have voted based on some mis-guided beliefs of what a Post-Brexit land would look like.

What you think others voted for isn't really relevant, though. That's pure supposition on your part and you do not get to deny others a say because of what you think they might have in their minds when they vote.

For the record, it has become abundantly clear to me that most remainers had no idea what the EU is, what it does or how it operates. Many of them it seemed to me voted the way they did out of a combination of conservatism and a general sense that voting Remain was the 'virtuous' thing to do because Farage. Should their votes also be discounted as based on ignorance?

[PSRB]

What you think others voted for isn't really relevant, though. That's pure supposition on your part and you do not get to deny others a say because of what you think they might have in their minds when they vote.

For the record, it has become abundantly clear to me that most remainers had no idea what the EU is, what it does or how it operates. Many of them it seemed to me voted the way they did out of a combination of conservatism and a general sense that voting Remain was the 'virtuous' thing to do because Farage. Should their votes also be discounted as based on ignorance?

Most of them (at least on Twitter) seem to think that we are actually leaving Europe not the EU

[Pokster]

What you think others voted for isn't really relevant, though. That's pure supposition on your part and you do not get to deny others a say because of what you think they might have in their minds when they vote.

For the record, it has become abundantly clear to me that most remainers had no idea what the EU is, what it does or how it operates. Many of them it seemed to me voted the way they did out of a combination of conservatism and a general sense that voting Remain was the 'virtuous' thing to do because Farage. Should their votes also be discounted as based on ignorance?

..........

[Tony C]

too many foreigners were allowed to vote in the referendum too.

Flawed rules allowing Commonwealth citizens living here to vote.

All these extra voted and remain still lost.

[Burney]

..........

Yes. Hence 'For the record', denoting the fact that it was not intended as a substantive point, but merely as a means of turning r's question back on him.

[Ash]

Most of them (at least on Twitter) seem to think that we are actually leaving Europe not the EU

As in pulling up the anchor and sailing off into the West? Frodo style?

Or just not playing in the Europa League any more.