Have we actually had a proper, old skool English collapse so far this tournament?

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Just sayin' that when we play like this, we always have one game where our batsmen all go to pieces.

I'd suggest a cheeky punt on the Kiwis.

[Ash]

Seems natural that a massive dose of hubris is in the post after thwacking the convicts like that.

[PSRB]

Just sayin' that when we play like this, we always have one game where our batsmen all go to pieces.

I'd suggest a cheeky punt on the Kiwis.

Sri Lanka was pretty inept stuff

[Luis Anaconda]

Sri Lanka was pretty inept stuff

Australia the first time was quite bad as well 53-4

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Australia the first time was quite bad as well 53-4

3 single figure scores, three in the 20s and an 89 wasn't really what I meant. I'd almost be happier is we'd been skittled out in that game for a hundred or so, knowing we'd got it out of our system.

Against SL we need c.110 off 20 overs with 7 wickets left, so we've had an end collapse as well as a beginning collapse, but we haven't had a proper, old skool, English collapsofück yet.

Stokes scored 80s in both games. {And that bodes well for the Ashes, I accept.}

If you had a choice, would you bat first or chase? I just wonder if we're more likely to collapse while chasing or if this would be offset by the fact that our bowlers could restrict the Kiwis and reduce scoreboard pressure.

[PSRB]

3 single figure scores, three in the 20s and an 89 wasn't really what I meant. I'd almost be happier is we'd been skittled out in that game for a hundred or so, knowing we'd got it out of our system.

Against SL we need c.110 off 20 overs with 7 wickets left, so we've had an end collapse as well as a beginning collapse, but we haven't had a proper, old skool, English collapsofück yet.

Stokes scored 80s in both games. {And that bodes well for the Ashes, I accept.}

If you had a choice, would you bat first or chase? I just wonder if we're more likely to collapse while chasing or if this would be offset by the fact that our bowlers could restrict the Kiwis and reduce scoreboard pressure.

Without wishing to put the mockers on us, we do have one hell of a batting line up at our disposal.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Without wishing to put the mockers on us, we do have one hell of a batting line up at our disposal.

You jinxing cünt.

With the exception of Stokes, all of them collapsed against either SL or Aus. And we couldn't chase down 350 against Pak.

Anyway, if we win the toss, do we bat or not?

[Luis Anaconda]

You jinxing cünt.

With the exception of Stokes, all of them collapsed against either SL or Aus. And we couldn't chase down 350 against Pak.

Anyway, if we win the toss, do we bat or not?
Yes - bat first please

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Yes - bat first please

Any idea why Woakes would still have had an over left if the Aussies had gone the distance? Seems silly to me.

He's really proving himself as an ODI bowler.

There was an article in the Times or Graun saying Joffra must play in the Ashes. But if both JA and SB are fit and firing, and Stokes is going to play, are they really suggesting we should drop Woakes?

Or could be go into a test match with 5 quicks and just Root's twirlers, a bit like the WIndies used to but with Stokes as well.

It's a pity YJB isn't good enough as a test no.3 as I'd like to see Foakes keep. But we have too many all rounders and no test top order.

[Luis Anaconda]

Any idea why Woakes would still have had an over left if the Aussies had gone the distance? Seems silly to me.

He's really proving himself as an ODI bowler.

There was an article in the Times or Graun saying Joffra must play in the Ashes. But if both JA and SB are fit and firing, and Stokes is going to play, are they really suggesting we should drop Woakes?

Or could be go into a test match with 5 quicks and just Root's twirlers, a bit like the WIndies used to but with Stokes as well.

It's a pity YJB isn't good enough as a test no.3 as I'd like to see Foakes keep. But we have too many all rounders and no test top order.
Don't think Broad is an automatic pick so maybe an opportunity there (wrong in my view). Woakes isn't guaranteed a start - there is Wood as well. I fancy there may be a bit of rotation but I would start at Edgbaston with:
Burns
Roy
??? (won't score any runs anyway)
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler (these three in any order)
Ali
Archer
Broad
Anderson


Re Woakes in the ODI - don't think Morgan likes to bowl him in the middle overs. Really seen as just a new ball bowler. Could almost bowl him out from the start. Fair enough to bring him back for the tail though

[Burney]

Don't think Broad is an automatic pick so maybe an opportunity there (wrong in my view). Woakes isn't guaranteed a start - there is Wood as well. I fancy there may be a bit of rotation but I would start at Edgbaston with:
Burns
Roy
??? (won't score any runs anyway)
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler (these three in any order)
Ali
Archer
Broad
Anderson


Re Woakes in the ODI - don't think Morgan likes to bowl him in the middle overs. Really seen as just a new ball bowler. Could almost bowl him out from the start. Fair enough to bring him back for the tail though

Our total lack of a proper top 3 is going to be a major handicap in this Ashes. Starc'll be into our middle order with the ball less than 10 overs old with monotonous frequency this summer. :-(

[PSRB]

Don't think Broad is an automatic pick so maybe an opportunity there (wrong in my view). Woakes isn't guaranteed a start - there is Wood as well. I fancy there may be a bit of rotation but I would start at Edgbaston with:
Burns
Roy
??? (won't score any runs anyway)
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler (these three in any order)
Ali
Archer
Broad
Anderson


Re Woakes in the ODI - don't think Morgan likes to bowl him in the middle overs. Really seen as just a new ball bowler. Could almost bowl him out from the start. Fair enough to bring him back for the tail though

Foakes for Buttler, I do like a proper keeper.....or push Root to 3 (whether he likes it or not, pity he's Captain) and play Buttler as a specialist batter

[Burney]

Foakes for Buttler, I do like a proper keeper.....or push Root to 3 (whether he likes it or not, pity he's Captain) and play Buttler as a specialist batter

Nah. In a team that contains Bairstow and Buttler, there simply is no excuse for playing a specialist keeper. It's just a waste of a batting spot.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Don't think Broad is an automatic pick so maybe an opportunity there (wrong in my view). Woakes isn't guaranteed a start - there is Wood as well. I fancy there may be a bit of rotation but I would start at Edgbaston with:
Burns
Roy
??? (won't score any runs anyway)
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler (these three in any order)
Ali
Archer
Broad
Anderson


Re Woakes in the ODI - don't think Morgan likes to bowl him in the middle overs. Really seen as just a new ball bowler. Could almost bowl him out from the start. Fair enough to bring him back for the tail though

I agree about bringing Woakes back for the tail, but as you say, if he's not going to be used at the death, then keep bowling him if he's only going at 3-4 an over at the start.

We just don't have a test top 3, though, and I don't see how you can hope to win a series without one.

[Luis Anaconda]

Our total lack of a proper top 3 is going to be a major handicap in this Ashes. Starc'll be into our middle order with the ball less than 10 overs old with monotonous frequency this summer. :-(

Starc (famous last words) isn't actually that dangerous in English conditions though. Can't bowl with a Duke ball. Hazelwood may be more of an issue. Interesting, if seems likely, Roy opens. Just needs to come off once or twice and he could have a real effect on the series imo. Genuinely can't think of who we can pick at 3 (Joe? Joe? ARE YOU LISTENING JOE?). Mind you, Jimmy versus their top order shouldn't be a long contest either

[Burney]

Starc (famous last words) isn't actually that dangerous in English conditions though. Can't bowl with a Duke ball. Hazelwood may be more of an issue. Interesting, if seems likely, Roy opens. Just needs to come off once or twice and he could have a real effect on the series imo. Genuinely can't think of who we can pick at 3 (Joe? Joe? ARE YOU LISTENING JOE?). Mind you, Jimmy versus their top order shouldn't be a long contest either

As regards Root, I find it odd that people are so happy to compare his average as a number 3 unfavourably with that when he bats 4 and put it down to place in the batting order, but ignore the fact that this decline also coincided with him becoming captain.

[Luis Anaconda]

As regards Root, I find it odd that people are so happy to compare his average as a number 3 unfavourably with that when he bats 4 and put it down to place in the batting order, but ignore the fact that this decline also coincided with him becoming captain.

He was a pretty decent opener ffs. Also his decline is relative - still third most runs of any player in the world last year.

Almost an argument for Morgan to be brought into the team as captain. Any runs would be a bonus :)

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Starc (famous last words) isn't actually that dangerous in English conditions though. Can't bowl with a Duke ball. Hazelwood may be more of an issue. Interesting, if seems likely, Roy opens. Just needs to come off once or twice and he could have a real effect on the series imo. Genuinely can't think of who we can pick at 3 (Joe? Joe? ARE YOU LISTENING JOE?). Mind you, Jimmy versus their top order shouldn't be a long contest either

Even if you haven't jinxed us to get skittled out by Starc, it doesn't matter. My missus would be too good for any of our contenders for top 3. She bowled against 8 year olds in the park in Mumbai with more talent than the likes of Burns and Vince.

Do you really think Roy could open in an Ashes test? A FC average of 38, with a SR over 82. We need to see off the new ball and get to lunch, to allow our middle and lower-middle order to make hay in the late-afternoon sun.

I've honestly seen people posting on the Times and Graun saying the current odi side should be what we use for the test.

It's the Ashes, ffs. They can't be won simply by playing a bunch of slogging all-rounders. Cloud over and a lost toss and we'll be all out by lunch on the first day.

[Ash]

He was a pretty decent opener ffs. Also his decline is relative - still third most runs of any player in the world last year.

Almost an argument for Morgan to be brought into the team as captain. Any runs would be a bonus :)

:nod: Specialist captain. These super-batters always seem to lose some of their powers when they become captain.

[Luis Anaconda]

Even if you haven't jinxed us to get skittled out by Starc, it doesn't matter. My missus would be too good for any of our contenders for top 3. She bowled against 8 year olds in the park in Mumbai with more talent than the likes of Burns and Vince.

Do you really think Roy could open in an Ashes test? A FC average of 38, with a SR over 82. We need to see off the new ball and get to lunch, to allow our middle and lower-middle order to make hay in the late-afternoon sun.

I've honestly seen people posting on the Times and Graun saying the current odi side should be what we use for the test.

It's the Ashes, ffs. They can't be won simply by playing a bunch of slogging all-rounders. Cloud over and a lost toss and we'll be all out by lunch on the first day.

It's a gamble and the figures don't stack up but sometimes momentum can be a key thing. Look at Trescothick who hardly had a stellar career pre-Test debut and was unorthodox. Got in on the back of great one-day form and was one of the finest openers we've had imo

[Luis Anaconda]

:nod: Specialist captain. These super-batters always seem to lose some of their powers when they become captain.

Speaking of superbatsmen - are you going to get the chance to see AB at all?

[Ash]

Speaking of superbatsmen - are you going to get the chance to see AB at all?

8th August v Surrey. :-)

[Burney]

It's a gamble and the figures don't stack up but sometimes momentum can be a key thing. Look at Trescothick who hardly had a stellar career pre-Test debut and was unorthodox. Got in on the back of great one-day form and was one of the finest openers we've had imo

:nod: Trescothick gets too little credit for our 2005 Ashes win imo. He took the attack to the Australian seamers, got our run-rate up and generally gave us momentum and the initiative (until Warne came on, obviously). There is something to be said for that sort of player - after all, Sehwag's game didn't change much between tests and one-dayers and he ended up averaging 49 :shrug:

[Burney]

Speaking of superbatsmen - are you going to get the chance to see AB at all?

Allan Border? Bit late for that imo.

[Luis Anaconda]

8th August v Surrey. :-)
Nice - we'll probably have been knocked out by then but he'll be good to watch

[Luis Anaconda]

:nod: Trescothick gets too little credit for our 2005 Ashes win imo. He took the attack to the Australian seamers, got our run-rate up and generally gave us momentum and the initiative (until Warne came on, obviously). There is something to be said for that sort of player - after all, Sehwag's game didn't change much between tests and one-dayers and he ended up averaging 49 :shrug:
Spot on - as I said earlier, just needs these players to come off once or twice a series and they win games (not unlike Broad with the ball which is why I would be reluctant to drop him)

[Luis Anaconda]

Allan Border? Bit late for that imo.

Never did see him bat - probably didn't miss much. I was thinking the other day of the best XI I had actually seen live. Think I came up with something like this. Bit batting top heavy but didn't want to leave out Crowe. Not sure you need a fifth bowler anyway

Greenidge
Cook
Richards
Tendulkar (though never saw him bat only field)
Ponting
Crowe M
Gilchrist
Marshall
Warne
Hadlee
McGrath

[Burney]

Never did see him bat - probably didn't miss much. I was thinking the other day of the best XI I had actually seen live. Think I came up with something like this. Bit batting top heavy but didn't want to leave out Crowe. Not sure you need a fifth bowler anyway

Greenidge
Cook
Richards
Tendulkar (though never saw him bat only field)
Ponting
Crowe M
Gilchrist
Marshall
Warne
Hadlee
McGrath

I’ve got all those, but I’d be able to put Gavaskar in ahead of Cook.
Actually, don’t know if this counts, but I saw Sobers play (albeit in an old fúcker’s game at The Oval when he was about 50) and he’d have to get a spot ahead of Ponting -which also sorts your bowling issue out.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

It's a gamble and the figures don't stack up but sometimes momentum can be a key thing. Look at Trescothick who hardly had a stellar career pre-Test debut and was unorthodox. Got in on the back of great one-day form and was one of the finest openers we've had imo

Good point. I hope you're right. I think it no coincidence that as we've seen the rise of T20 leagues, we've been unable to replace Strauss, Cook and Trott.

All our bowlers and WKs can slog scoops and switch-hits for six, but we don't have anyone that can see off the new ball.

But Hales didn't work as an opener despite being in great form in the slogging.

Tbh, if you look at the way Stokes has played this tournament, I don't think he could do a worse job as opener than someone like Burns.

That would give us the option of playing Foakes, a proper 'keeper who's already scored a test ton. And with the likes of YJB, Buttler and Ali (if he returned to form) it's not as though Stokes at 6 is our only counter-attacking option.

Stokes actually has the technique to defend. And as I say, we could then play a proper keeper, or have Woakes and Archer in a side with 5 quicks.

Ali, Woakes/Foakes and Archer at 7,8,9 isn't too shabby. (Or Ali, Foakes, Woakes. - A no.9 with a test century to his name. Pity Broad forgot how to bat.)

[Rich]

He was a pretty decent opener ffs. Also his decline is relative - still third most runs of any player in the world last year.

Almost an argument for Morgan to be brought into the team as captain. Any runs would be a bonus :)

Morgan can't play the short ball, though. Which, when playing a team containing 3 85mph+ bowlers, is a bit of a problem.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

:nod: Trescothick gets too little credit for our 2005 Ashes win imo. He took the attack to the Australian seamers, got our run-rate up and generally gave us momentum and the initiative (until Warne came on, obviously). There is something to be said for that sort of player - after all, Sehwag's game didn't change much between tests and one-dayers and he ended up averaging 49 :shrug:

How does he get too little credit? He was the 2nd highest run scorer. While Strauss got two tons, MK didn't get any but got 3 50s and averaged 43. Great opening combination, imo.

[Rich]

Never did see him bat - probably didn't miss much. I was thinking the other day of the best XI I had actually seen live. Think I came up with something like this. Bit batting top heavy but didn't want to leave out Crowe. Not sure you need a fifth bowler anyway

Greenidge
Cook
Richards
Tendulkar (though never saw him bat only field)
Ponting
Crowe M
Gilchrist
Marshall
Warne
Hadlee
McGrath

Surely Jacques Kallis :love: gets in ahead of Crowe?

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Spot on - as I said earlier, just needs these players to come off once or twice a series and they win games (not unlike Broad with the ball which is why I would be reluctant to drop him)

Broad with his dander up against the Convicts is a terrifying sight. He has to start the first two tests at least, for me. If he's lost it, fine. But if not, we'll need him with the new ball.

[Burney]

How does he get too little credit? He was the 2nd highest run scorer. While Strauss got two tons, MK didn't get any but got 3 50s and averaged 43. Great opening combination, imo.

Because nobody ever mentions how important his runs were in a psychological sense in taking the attack to the Aussies and in scoring quickly to ensure results. He gets overlooked in most of the retrospectives about that series, but having an English opener go after Australia’s quicks when we’d spent the previous 15 years just desperately trying to hang on was a big psychological shift.

[PSRB]

Because nobody ever mentions how important his runs were in a psychological sense in taking the attack to the Aussies and in scoring quickly to ensure results. He gets overlooked in most of the retrospectives about that series, but having an English opener go after Australia’s quicks when we’d spent the previous 15 years just desperately trying to hang on was a big psychological shift.

Lovely player to watch as well

[Luis Anaconda]

Surely Jacques Kallis :love: gets in ahead of Crowe?
Martin Crowe is an absolute hero of mine though - have to have him in. Probably before your time but a wonderful man to watch

[Luis Anaconda]

I’ve got all those, but I’d be able to put Gavaskar in ahead of Cook.
Actually, don’t know if this counts, but I saw Sobers play (albeit in an old fúcker’s game at The Oval when he was about 50) and he’d have to get a spot ahead of Ponting -which also sorts your bowling issue out.

Actually I could have put Gavaskar in - saw him in this match
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/16736/scorecard/399159/marylebone-cricket-club-vs-rest-of-the-world-xi-rest-of-the-world-xi-tour-of-england-1987

Actually forgotten I'd seen Khan and Dev play too :yikes: Think Imran might even squeeze McGrath out of my team

[Burney]

Actually I could have put Gavaskar in - saw him in this match
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/16736/scorecard/399159/marylebone-cricket-club-vs-rest-of-the-world-xi-rest-of-the-world-xi-tour-of-england-1987

Actually forgotten I'd seen Khan and Dev play too :yikes: Think Imran might even squeeze McGrath out of my team

LOL! That's where I saw him, too. I remember thinking 'How come this little Indian chap is playing the fearsome Marshall as if he's all the time in the world, when our players are being ripped apart by him?

The answer, of course, was that he was much, much better than them.

I remember Imran's knock in that game, too. :cloud9: Who would have thought he'd end up being Prime Minister of Pakistan, eh?

[Burney]

Martin Crowe is an absolute hero of mine though - have to have him in. Probably before your time but a wonderful man to watch

His on-drive was a thing of beauty. He, on the other hand, was not.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Because nobody ever mentions how important his runs were in a psychological sense in taking the attack to the Aussies and in scoring quickly to ensure results. He gets overlooked in most of the retrospectives about that series, but having an English opener go after Australia’s quicks when we’d spent the previous 15 years just desperately trying to hang on was a big psychological shift.

Nah. It was scoring 407 a/o in just under 80 overs on the first day of the 2nd test that turned things around after the Lords humiliation.

MK got 90 in 102 balls. That set it up for KP and Freddie to continue.

But I haven't watched any retrospectives. I only have my memories from the time. If only we had an opener like him now.

[Luis Anaconda]

LOL! That's where I saw him, too. I remember thinking 'How come this little Indian chap is playing the fearsome Marshall as if he's all the time in the world, when our players are being ripped apart by him?

The answer, of course, was that he was much, much better than them.

I remember Imran's knock in that game, too. :cloud9: Who would have thought he'd end up being Prime Minister of Pakistan, eh?

He was definitely more interested in blondes back then I seem to recall

[Burney]

He was definitely more interested in blondes back then I seem to recall

Famously so, as I recall. He cut a romantic swathe through the upper echelons of London society by all accounts.

This was where I saw Sobers play, btw. I would have been somewhere behind them in the Members' stand with my dad.

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/just-before-their-cricket-match-the-old-world-xi-team-at-news-photo/835105958

[Tony C]

Easy England win...

Regarding the toss I wouldn’t be afraid to bowl first IF Archer and Woakes fancy it.

Kiwis have been going downhill this tournament and they were lucky last time.

Jadeja and Dhoni had them to hang but just lost their cool.

England on the other hand had their noses somewhat bloodied and have responded extremely well.

They remind me of one of those IPL teams that finishes 4th but ends up winning the semi final, final eliminator and the final to land the tournament.

They’ll be too strong for the Kiwis.

—-

And no I haven’t jinxed us...if England lose it’s Channel4’s fault!

[Tony C]

Ps....roy century incomingggggggg

[Tony C]

Pleasing fightback from England there.

NZ were well on course for 280plus.

242 is light work but they saw what happened to India so sensible play please.

Won’t have a better chance of winning a World Cup imo

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Ps....roy century incomingggggggg

I knew you'd jinxed us when I read that post.