Yup. Nothing undemocratic about that there EU.

[Burney]

:hehe:

https://order-order.com/2019/03/28/meps-tricked-voting-wrong-way-article-13/

[Ash]

So thirteen MEPs were tricked into voting the wrong way on a significant bill which passed by five votes. The EU agreed to modify their voting records but not the result.

Thankfully we have WES to come and explain how this is all a perfectly fine. It's democracy Jim, just not as we know it. Voters of Europe Unite! We have nothing to lose but our memes!

Has this story has appeared much outside of Guido Fawkes' website do you know?

[Burney]

So thirteen MEPs were tricked into voting the wrong way on a significant bill which passed by five votes. The EU agreed to modify their voting records but not the result.

Thankfully we have WES to come and explain how this is all a perfectly fine. It's democracy Jim, just not as we know it. Voters of Europe Unite! We have nothing to lose but our memes!

Has this story has appeared much outside of Guido Fawkes' website do you know?

I’m going to guess not.

[WES]

:hehe:

https://order-order.com/2019/03/28/meps-tricked-voting-wrong-way-article-13/

So as ad hominem is one of your favourite debating tools, allow me to point out that this is a blog written by someone described as a ‘right wing political blogger’ who used to have a daily column in the Sun. so no chance of anti EU bias here :hehe:

I also love the way he describes MEPs as ‘robotically’ voting as though they never actually think about it. Not to mention a voting process being described as undemocratic.

Honestly, if this is the best you can do the EU must be terribly democratic :hehe:

[Sir C]

So as ad hominem is one of your favourite debating tools, allow me to point out that this is a blog written by someone described as a ‘right wing political blogger’ who used to have a daily column in the Sun. so no chance of anti EU bias here :hehe:

I also love the way he describes MEPs as ‘robotically’ voting as though they never actually think about it. Not to mention a voting process being described as undemocratic.

Honestly, if this is the best you can do the EU must be terribly democratic ��

Are the facts of the story as reported unture, then?

[WES]

Are the facts of the story as reported unture, then?

I have no idea. Nor do you. Nor Burney nor Ash nor the chap that wrote it.

His basis for the story is described as ‘Guido understands’ - no quotes, no evidence, nothing.

It’s a blog, an idiot with an opinion, a bias and access to the internet, nothing more.

[Sir C]

I have no idea. Nor do you. Nor Burney nor Ash nor the chap that wrote it.

His basis for the story is described as ‘Guido understands’ - no quotes, no evidence, nothing.

It’s a blog, an idiot with an opinion, a bias and access to the internet, nothing more.

No quotes other than the, you know, quotes?

Funny how thew story was also reported by that bastion of anti-EU propaganda, The Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/mar/27/mep-errors-mean-european-copyright-law-may-not-have-passed

As self-****ings go, you've excelled yourself here, old chap.

[Ash]

So as ad hominem is one of your favourite debating tools, allow me to point out that this is a blog written by someone described as a ‘right wing political blogger’ who used to have a daily column in the Sun. so no chance of anti EU bias here :hehe:

I also love the way he describes MEPs as ‘robotically’ voting as though they never actually think about it. Not to mention a voting process being described as undemocratic.

Honestly, if this is the best you can do the EU must be terribly democratic :hehe:

But 13 of them just admitted voting without thinking about it. :shrug: Unless this right-wing blogger just made it up, of course.

Except oh, wait.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/mar/27/mep-errors-mean-european-copyright-law-may-not-have-passed

He got the story from that well-known swivel-eyed right wing newspaper The Guardian.

[Ash]

I have no idea. Nor do you. Nor Burney nor Ash nor the chap that wrote it.

His basis for the story is described as ‘Guido understands’ - no quotes, no evidence, nothing.

It’s a blog, an idiot with an opinion, a bias and access to the internet, nothing more.

:hehe: :clap:

Who's the fùckin idiot now?

[Herbert Augustus Chapman]

No quotes other than the, you know, quotes?

Funny how thew story was also reported by that bastion of anti-EU propaganda, The Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/mar/27/mep-errors-mean-european-copyright-law-may-not-have-passed

As self-****ings go, you've excelled yourself here, old chap.

Top ****ing c, though our moose raping friend is no fool and will be feverishly trawling the internets, just as you did, until he finds a source that lends weight to his argument. Have your rebuttals and refutations ready!

[Sir C]

Top ****ing c, though our moose raping friend is no fool and will be feverishly trawling the internets, just as you did, until he finds a source that lends weight to his argument. Have your rebuttals and refutations ready!

There's no coming back from that, h. He's like Danny Mills when Titi nutmegged him.

His only course of action now is to admit he's been royally ****ed with a little dignity.

Does he possess a little dignity, do you think?

[WES]

No quotes other than the, you know, quotes?

Funny how thew story was also reported by that bastion of anti-EU propaganda, The Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/mar/27/mep-errors-mean-european-copyright-law-may-not-have-passed

As self-****ings go, you've excelled yourself here, old chap.


I’m afraid not, you should read both articles more carefully, Charles. The blogger says that MEPs were ‘tricked’ into voting one way and uses this as a justification for claiming that the EU is undemocratic.

The Guardian article does nothing of the kind. It describes MEP having voted incorrectly by accident and the EU taking the vote as official anyway.

As I said, if this is the best they can do...

[Herbert Augustus Chapman]

There's no coming back from that, h. He's like Danny Mills when Titi nutmegged him.

His only course of action now is to admit he's been royally ****ed with a little dignity.

Does he possess a little dignity, do you think?

Well I'm somewhat loathe to say anything unpleasant about him c as I understand he's a rather large unit and may bash me up :-(

[Sir C]

I’m afraid not, you should read both articles more carefully, Charles. The blogger says that MEPs were ‘tricked’ into voting one way and uses this as a justification for claiming that the EU is undemocratic.

The Guardian article does nothing of the kind. It describes MEP having voted incorrectly by accident and the EU taking the vote as official anyway.

As I said, if this is the best they can do...

:shrug: The point of the story is that MEPs voted incorrectly, in numbers sufficient to change the result of the vote, had their incorrect votes 'corrected' in the record, but the result was not amended. Whether Guido's emotive language is justified or helpful (and I would tend to suggest it isn't) the facts remain as reported.

The organisation is undeniably corrupt, undemocratic and unaccountable. How you can draw any other conclusion mystifies me.

[WES]

But 13 of them just admitted voting without thinking about it. :shrug: Unless this right-wing blogger just made it up, of course.

Except oh, wait.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/mar/27/mep-errors-mean-european-copyright-law-may-not-have-passed

He got the story from that well-known swivel-eyed right wing newspaper The Guardian.

No, 13 of them admitted they accidentally voted the wrong way. The bias in the original blog is the way he interpreted what had occurred and attributed it to the EU not being democratic. Something the Guardian did not do.

You’re reading what you want to read, Ash

[Sir C]

Well I'm somewhat loathe to say anything unpleasant about him c as I understand he's a rather large unit and may bash me up :-(

He's all mouth and would drop his guts if confronted by an Englishman.

[WES]

:shrug: The point of the story is that MEPs voted incorrectly, in numbers sufficient to change the result of the vote, had their incorrect votes 'corrected' in the record, but the result was not amended. Whether Guido's emotive language is justified or helpful (and I would tend to suggest it isn't) the facts remain as reported.

The organisation is undeniably corrupt, undemocratic and unaccountable. How you can draw any other conclusion mystifies me.


I have no strong view on how democratic the EU is or is not other than that I don’t agree that it is not at all democratic. And this example proves nothing in that regard. :shrug:

Also, you almost got it correct. Had the MEPs voted as they wished amendments would have been allowed but there was no guarantee that they then would have been voted for.

[Herbert Augustus Chapman]

He's all mouth and would drop his guts if confronted by an Englishman.

I seem to have trouble standing my ground since I became a woman c.

[WES]

:shrug: The point of the story is that MEPs voted incorrectly, in numbers sufficient to change the result of the vote, had their incorrect votes 'corrected' in the record, but the result was not amended. Whether Guido's emotive language is justified or helpful (and I would tend to suggest it isn't) the facts remain as reported.

The organisation is undeniably corrupt, undemocratic and unaccountable. How you can draw any other conclusion mystifies me.


And one more thing - do you not find it surprising that Germans, French, Spanish and 24 other countries can accept being governed (at some level) by a corrupt, undemocratic and unaccountable body? They’re pretty intelligent, educated people you know. And before you drop the ‘yes, but we’re English’ line you might want to consider that 49% of Brits we’re happy with that situation as well.

It’s almost as though it might not be true :rubchin:

[Sir C]

And one more thing - do you not find it surprising that Germans, French, Spanish and 24 other countries can accept being governed (at some level) by a corrupt, undemocratic and unaccountable body? They’re pretty intelligent, educated people you know. And before you drop the ‘yes, but we’re English’ line you might want to consider that 49% of Brits we’re happy with that situation as well.

It’s almost as though it might not be true :rubchin:

You don't see a growing body of anti-EU sentiment thorughout member states? Really? You haven't noticed that?

Weird flex but OK.

[WES]

You don't see a growing body of anti-EU sentiment thorughout member states? Really? You haven't noticed that?

Weird flex but OK.

Yes, I see that growing sentiment. But I don’t see any of them voting to leave. Something I would expect to see if the EU really was what you claim it to be.

[Monty92]

Yes, I see that growing sentiment. But I don’t see any of them voting to leave. Something I would expect to see if the EU really was what you claim it to be.

The common sentiment held by Remainers about Leavers is that they are too ignorant and ill-informed to see beyond the caricature of the EU ("bendy bananas", "blue passports",) and fail to understand why it is in essence a force for good.

But perhaps it is Remainers who are too ignorant and ill-informed to see beyond the caricature of Leavers and fail to understand that they may simply hold entirely reasonable and legitimate objections to the philosophical ideology that underpins the EU.

[redgunamo]

Yeah, that's the whole point, see? European people do whatever they're told to do by their betters.



Yes, I see that growing sentiment. But I don’t see any of them voting to leave. Something I would expect to see if the EU really was what you claim it to be.

[Ash]

No, 13 of them admitted they accidentally voted the wrong way. The bias in the original blog is the way he interpreted what had occurred and attributed it to the EU not being democratic. Something the Guardian did not do.

You’re reading what you want to read, Ash

Are you quite sure that I am the one reading what I want to read?

In fact the Guardian piece does cite a source that accuses the EU of switching the order in a deliberate attempt to manipulate the outcome.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190326/15193241877/enough-meps-say-they-mistakenly-voted-articles-11-13-that-vote-should-have-flipped-eu-parliament-says-too-bad.shtml

The same piece also shows how the EU recognised the error on their voting record, essentially correcting it, while refusing to correct the important outcome on the bill. They have clearly subverted what democratic processes exist in the machinery, to force a very controversial law through, with substantial impacts on many aspects of internet use, including free speech and sharing of information. Check out the link tax. We might not, in future, even be able to post the links and quotes that we have on this thread discussing it.

In short, everything the right-wing loon posted on his site is sourced, and not made up as you claimed. And while some of his language may have been a leetle beet rhetorical (god forbid any of us ever do that on the internet), his point stands. There is evidence of procedural manipulation to subvert democracy and impose an authoritarian law. Textbook EU, some might say. Excuse the rhetoric. ;-)

[Ash]

The common sentiment held by Remainers about Leavers is that they are too ignorant and ill-informed to see beyond the caricature of the EU ("bendy bananas", "blue passports",) and fail to understand why it is in essence a force for good.

But perhaps it is Remainers who are too ignorant and ill-informed to see beyond the caricature of Leavers and fail to understand that they may simply hold entirely reasonable and legitimate objections to the philosophical ideology that underpins the EU.

GPWM. One irony is that while Leavers are portrayed as knuckle-dragging xylophones spewing bigotry and hatred, most of the bigotry and hatred I have witnessed in our great, progressive metropolis here has been directed against Leavers.

Yet the biggest irony of all, and one which might persuade actual racists like you to vote Remain in the return leg, is that Remain is in fact the option for those who want a whiter Britain. Were we to actually leave, any requirements to import labour would open up to the world on an equal basis, rather than the predominantly white European reserve army of cheap labour that the economy has become addicted to - at least in some sectors, and particularly in London.

[eastgermanautos]

:hehe:

https://order-order.com/2019/03/28/meps-tricked-voting-wrong-way-article-13/

What is this trash you're reading. "Euro-Guido" forsooth. Get a hobby bro. Macrame.

[Monty92]

GPWM. One irony is that while Leavers are portrayed as knuckle-dragging xylophones spewing bigotry and hatred, most of the bigotry and hatred I have witnessed in our great, progressive metropolis here has been directed against Leavers.

Yet the biggest irony of all, and one which might persuade actual racists like you to vote Remain in the return leg, is that Remain is in fact the option for those who want a whiter Britain. Were we to actually leave, any requirements to import labour would open up to the world on an equal basis, rather than the predominantly white European reserve army of cheap labour that the economy has become addicted to - at least in some sectors, and particularly in London.

I am NOT an "actual racist". Allans aren't a race and some of my favourite Awimbers are black :shrug: (not that fat lass who used to post)

[Pokster]

Are you quite sure that I am the one reading what I want to read?

In fact the Guardian piece does cite a source that accuses the EU of switching the order in a deliberate attempt to manipulate the outcome.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190326/15193241877/enough-meps-say-they-mistakenly-voted-articles-11-13-that-vote-should-have-flipped-eu-parliament-says-too-bad.shtml

The same piece also shows how the EU recognised the error on their voting record, essentially correcting it, while refusing to correct the important outcome on the bill. They have clearly subverted what democratic processes exist in the machinery, to force a very controversial law through, with substantial impacts on many aspects of internet use, including free speech and sharing of information. Check out the link tax. We might not, in future, even be able to post the links and quotes that we have on this thread discussing it.

In short, everything the right-wing loon posted on his site is sourced, and not made up as you claimed. And while some of his language may have been a leetle beet rhetorical (god forbid any of us ever do that on the internet), his point stands. There is evidence of procedural manipulation to subvert democracy and impose an authoritarian law. Textbook EU, some might say. Excuse the rhetoric. ;-)

I think it is fair to say that the EU has huge problems....as done the UK, we had a vote and our elected MP's won't carry it out, is that democracy working any better or worse than what the EU have done?

[Monty92]

We can hold our elected mps to account by voting them out.

I can’t believe this still needs emphasising.


I think it is fair to say that the EU has huge problems....as done the UK, we had a vote and our elected MP's won't carry it out, is that democracy working any better or worse than what the EU have done?

[Ash]

I think it is fair to say that the EU has huge problems....as done the UK, we had a vote and our elected MP's won't carry it out, is that democracy working any better or worse than what the EU have done?

They will be answerable to the electorate in the next election. Both main parties said they would honour the referendum result in their manifestos. The LibNonDems said they would ignore it won almost no seats, and UKIPs vote collapsed because its job was done.

The failure to honour the result will be punished. How many seats can 17 odd million win all voting for a new party?

[Monty92]

Who would get your vote if there were a GE today?


They will be answerable to the electorate in the next election. Both main parties said they would honour the referendum result in their manifestos. The LibNonDems said they would ignore it won almost no seats, and UKIPs vote collapsed because its job was done.

The failure to honour the result will be punished. How many seats can 17 odd million win all voting for a new party?

[Ash]

Who would get your vote if there were a GE today?

I'd look on the ticket to see what the options were. I'm sure some genuine Brexit candidate would stand in the constituency where the Labour leader has sold out his long-held euro-sceptic principals in exchange for power.

[Pokster]

We can hold our elected mps to account by voting them out.

I can’t believe this still needs emphasising.

You can also vote out your MEP.

[Pokster]

They will be answerable to the electorate in the next election. Both main parties said they would honour the referendum result in their manifestos. The LibNonDems said they would ignore it won almost no seats, and UKIPs vote collapsed because its job was done.

The failure to honour the result will be punished. How many seats can 17 odd million win all voting for a new party?

17 million people will not vote in a GE just on EU policy, the last election still retruend a huge number of remainer MP's, MP's also go along party lines a lot of the time, hence why Labour do not want to be seen agreeing to a Tory leave deal, and vice versa.

Eu is corrupt but to say it is fundamanetly worse than the UK is *******s imo

[redgunamo]

No, P. They are foreigners, they even speak foreign. They're so corrupt we can't even understand how corrupt they are.

That's how corrupt they are!



17 million people will not vote in a GE just on EU policy, the last election still retruend a huge number of remainer MP's, MP's also go along party lines a lot of the time, hence why Labour do not want to be seen agreeing to a Tory leave deal, and vice versa.

Eu is corrupt but to say it is fundamanetly worse than the UK is *******s imo

[redgunamo]

Right. Whereas the eurotrash know they can only get real change by smashing the place up. And probably not even then.

The Germans, for example, are still waiting for their chance to vote on re-unification. But they can't say anything because Nazis.


We can hold our elected mps to account by voting them out.

I can’t believe this still needs emphasising.

[Ash]

17 million people will not vote in a GE just on EU policy, the last election still retruend a huge number of remainer MP's, MP's also go along party lines a lot of the time, hence why Labour do not want to be seen agreeing to a Tory leave deal, and vice versa.

Eu is corrupt but to say it is fundamanetly worse than the UK is *******s imo

People voted for parties that promised to honour the result in their manifestos, rather than the Euro tilt of the actual candidates. I suspect they will not do that again.

[Ash]

You can also vote out your MEP.

We do not elect MEPs on the basis that they will form a government to carry out a manifesto.

[Pokster]

We do not elect MEPs on the basis that they will form a government to carry out a manifesto.

You vote for your MEP to carry out what is in his manifesto, exattly the same as in the UK

[Burney]

We can hold our elected mps to account by voting them out.

I can’t believe this still needs emphasising.

Sadly, Remainers have shown themselves quite capable of trotting this utter drivel out over and over again - anything as long as they don’t have to face up to the monstrous fact that they voted to make themselves less free and to be governed by foreigners they cannot remove or control in any way in exchange for a quiet life, a few quid in their pocket and some bullshít about international brotherhood.

They are weak and cowardly people. :shrug:

[Pokster]

Sadly, Remainers have shown themselves quite capable of trotting this utter drivel out over and over again - anything as long as they don’t have to face up to the monstrous fact that they voted to make themselves less free and to be governed by foreigners they cannot remove or control in any way in exchange for a quiet life, a few quid in their pocket and some bullshít about international brotherhood.

They are weak and cowardly people. :shrug:

Nothing like a generalisation there, no sireeeee. Because of course you know exactly why anyone who voted remain think, just like losts of others claim all leavers are racist.... utter ****e from both sides

[Ash]

You vote for your MEP to carry out what is in his manifesto, exattly the same as in the UK

Not exactly the same at all. He cannot form a goverment.

I give up. This is a total fùcking waste of time. #EndlessCircles

[Sir C]

Not exactly the same at all. He cannot form a goverment.

I give up. This is a total fùcking waste of time. #EndlessCircles

Mandem throwing bare shade, aight?

[Burney]

Nothing like a generalisation there, no sireeeee. Because of course you know exactly why anyone who voted remain think, just like losts of others claim all leavers are racist.... utter ****e from both sides

I just think there wasn’t a single principled reason to vote Remain. :shrug:
There were reasons of fearfulness (after all, it’s called Project Fear because it works on the fearful); there were reasons of self-interest and convenience; and there were reasons of ideology (aka national self-loathing).
Now I can perhaps sympathise with some of those feelings, but I can’t respect them. Ultimately, this is why I can’t help but feel a certain contempt for most people who voted Remain.

[WES]

Sadly, Remainers have shown themselves quite capable of trotting this utter drivel out over and over again - anything as long as they don’t have to face up to the monstrous fact that they voted to make themselves less free and to be governed by foreigners they cannot remove or control in any way in exchange for a quiet life, a few quid in their pocket and some bullshít about international brotherhood.

They are weak and cowardly people. :shrug:

16mil or so of them? Plus, Germans, French, Italians, Spanish and all the other countries in the EU? All those people willing to be governed by undemocratic, corrupt people?

Wow, there's just so many weak, cowardly, stupid people about. And Brexiters.

Amazing.

[Burney]

16mil or so of them? Plus, Germans, French, Italians, Spanish and all the other countries in the EU? All those people willing to be governed by undemocratic, corrupt people?

Wow, there's just so many weak, cowardly, stupid people about. And Brexiters.

Amazing.

For once, you’re correct.

[eastgermanautos]

I think it is fair to say that the EU has huge problems....as done the UK, we had a vote and our elected MP's won't carry it out, is that democracy working any better or worse than what the EU have done?

Yes, and it was a vote fraudulently gamed by the Russians! You people are the unwitting pawns of the more geopolitically canny.

[eastgermanautos]

For once, you’re correct.

But you know, the problem is that you will have argued your side oh so convincingly, but when you're a wet small island in the North Atlantic with no friends or clout, it will be too late. It's unclear whether the people, who were presented with a silly choice, would have signed up for *that. And they will blame you, and all your ilk, for having honeyed-ly convinced them to take a fateful step.

[Sir C]

But you know, the problem is that you will have argued your side oh so convincingly, but when you're a wet small island in the North Atlantic with no friends or clout, it will be too late. It's unclear whether the people, who were presented with a silly choice, would have signed up for *that. And they will blame you, and all your ilk, for having honeyed-ly convinced them to take a fateful step.

This small island ruled half the world and will do so again. EIN REICH WIN VOLK EIN REES MOGG

[Ash]

Yes, and it was a vote fraudulently gamed by the Russians! You people are the unwitting pawns of the more geopolitically canny.

You are a fùcking moronic cretin. Sir, kindly leave the internet.

[eastgermanautos]

You are a fùcking moronic cretin. Sir, kindly leave the internet.

Oh yes, were you the one about the download speeds. I can't remember. And how this proved that the Russians could not have hacked the Democratic National Committee :tinfoilhat:

[eastgermanautos]

This small island ruled half the world and will do so again. EIN REICH WIN VOLK EIN REES MOGG

You could have gone to war with the Russians over Salisbury, but did you? Oh no! Just a slap on the wrist and let's suspend Abramovich for six months. I wanted to see warships steaming into Petersburg.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

:shrug: The point of the story is that MEPs voted incorrectly, in numbers sufficient to change the result of the vote, had their incorrect votes 'corrected' in the record, but the result was not amended. Whether Guido's emotive language is justified or helpful (and I would tend to suggest it isn't) the facts remain as reported.

The organisation is undeniably corrupt, undemocratic and unaccountable. How you can draw any other conclusion mystifies me.

I agree with you entirely, C, in that the vote should have been held again. (And thank you for providing a reputable source.)

All I will point out is that there was a vote on Brexit last year where the result was 2 in the govt's favour. 2 top LDs weren't there as they'd been assured by the Lab whips that there'd be no major vote that day and both were doing constituency fundraisers or such like.

I don't remember B saying that was undemocratic and the vote should be re-run. Or that our system was undemocratic because such things occur.

Of course the EU vote should be re-done. Of course we need a better system, where MPs can vote electronically, but can get updated instructions from their whips electronically before they do so. (Silly foreigners with their bits of paper, etc.)

But why is our ****up acceptable but theirs not? 2 wrongs don't make a right, obv. They just make a double wrong.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Sadly, Remainers have shown themselves quite capable of trotting this utter drivel out over and over again - anything as long as they don’t have to face up to the monstrous fact that they voted to make themselves less free and to be governed by foreigners they cannot remove or control in any way in exchange for a quiet life, a few quid in their pocket and some bullshít about international brotherhood.

They are weak and cowardly people. :shrug:

I'd rather be governed by Frogs than Northerners.

Better food, more civilised culture, greater linguistic ability.

I have lived in Paris, Toulouse, St Martin, Barca, Rome, Utrect, Rotterdam, Amsterdam and Berlin. But never north of the M25. I like continentals, I hate northerners. Why should I consider myself part of the same demos as Mancs, Scousers, Brummies and Geordies when I can't stand any of them? They can stick their mushy peas where the sun don't shine.

[Sir C]

I agree with you entirely, C, in that the vote should have been held again. (And thank you for providing a reputable source.)

All I will point out is that there was a vote on Brexit last year where the result was 2 in the govt's favour. 2 top LDs weren't there as they'd been assured by the Lab whips that there'd be no major vote that day and both were doing constituency fundraisers or such like.

I don't remember B saying that was undemocratic and the vote should be re-run. Or that our system was undemocratic because such things occur.

Of course the EU vote should be re-done. Of course we need a better system, where MPs can vote electronically, but can get updated instructions from their whips electronically before they do so. (Silly foreigners with their bits of paper, etc.)

But why is our ****up acceptable but theirs not? 2 wrongs don't make a right, obv. They just make a double wrong.

As you say, two wrongs don't make a right - but we at least have the possibility of reforming our democracy. The EU will bow only to the will of Fuhrerin Merkel. The rest of us can go blow up our own kilts.

[Burney]

I'd rather be governed by Frogs than Northerners.

Better food, more civilised culture, greater linguistic ability.

I have lived in Paris, Toulouse, St Martin, Barca, Rome, Utrect, Rotterdam, Amsterdam and Berlin. But never north of the M25. I like continentals, I hate northerners. Why should I consider myself part of the same demos as Mancs, Scousers, Brummies and Geordies when I can't stand any of them? They can stick their mushy peas where the sun don't shine.

Then you’re a bigoted arse. :shrug:

I know and love many northerners - indeed I’m married to one. I also love France and have very positive feelings about the French. Although their political, cultural, media and academic class are the very worst kind of scum - even worse than ours, which is going it some.

[Ash]

Oh yes, were you the one about the download speeds. I can't remember. And how this proved that the Russians could not have hacked the Democratic National Committee :tinfoilhat:

It's called evidence, and it came from former intelligence professionals. Do a little thought experiment. Substitute the word "Russians" in your ravings with the word "Jews" and listen to how that goes down. You might notice that you sound like the demented, racist conspiracy theorist that you are.

[Sir C]

I'd rather be governed by Frogs than Northerners.

Better food, more civilised culture, greater linguistic ability.

I have lived in Paris, Toulouse, St Martin, Barca, Rome, Utrect, Rotterdam, Amsterdam and Berlin. But never north of the M25. I like continentals, I hate northerners. Why should I consider myself part of the same demos as Mancs, Scousers, Brummies and Geordies when I can't stand any of them? They can stick their mushy peas where the sun don't shine.

Blimey. The only groups about whom it is safe to generalise are Americans (including Canadians) and Australians (including New Zealanders). In all other cases people should be treated and judged as individuals.

[Ash]

I'd rather be governed by Frogs than Northerners.

Better food, more civilised culture, greater linguistic ability.

I have lived in Paris, Toulouse, St Martin, Barca, Rome, Utrect, Rotterdam, Amsterdam and Berlin. But never north of the M25. I like continentals, I hate northerners. Why should I consider myself part of the same demos as Mancs, Scousers, Brummies and Geordies when I can't stand any of them? They can stick their mushy peas where the sun don't shine.

Hating whole groups of people because of their geography and lineage? Classy stuff.

And it's petit pois puree to you my friend. And no, I don't like them either, but chips with gravy is fùcking ace.

[IUFG]

I'd rather be governed by Frogs than Northerners.

Better food, more civilised culture, greater linguistic ability.

I have lived in Paris, Toulouse, St Martin, Barca, Rome, Utrect, Rotterdam, Amsterdam and Berlin. But never north of the M25. I like continentals, I hate northerners. Why should I consider myself part of the same demos as Mancs, Scousers, Brummies and Geordies when I can't stand any of them? They can stick their mushy peas where the sun don't shine.

Aye up, yer racist...the North is alright. A bit cold and damp, but alright.

Apart from the Liverpooly bit.

Mushy peas? Chips and gravy. Proper bitter beer? :cloud9:

[Sir C]

Aye up, yer racist...the North is alright. A bit cold and damp, but alright.

Apart from the Liverpooly bit.

Mushy peas? Chips and gravy. Proper bitter beer? :cloud9:

They have cheesy chips as well, don't they? And the parmo. Don't forget these people made a cult of the parmo!

Clever *******s.

[IUFG]

They have cheesy chips as well, don't they? And the parmo. Don't forget these people made a cult of the parmo!

Clever *******s.

And the holy grail - the Greggs Steak Bake...

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Blimey. The only groups about whom it is safe to generalise are Americans (including Canadians) and Australians (including New Zealanders). In all other cases people should be treated and judged as individuals.

Nah, my first gf and one of my glw's best mates are Canadians. Completely different kettle of fish to a Septic. Think war of 1812 and who was on who's side.

Ditto Kiwis aren't Convicts. I'm not that bothered if the All Blacks beat us. But the Ashes is life or death.

So in fact, the only four groups we're allowed to generalise about are Convicts, Septics, Chinks (for the invasion of Tibet) and 'Stanis (for obvious reasons.). Oh, and Northerners, of course.

[eastgermanautos]

Then you’re a bigoted arse. :shrug:

I know and love many northerners - indeed I’m married to one. I also love France and have very positive feelings about the French. Although their political, cultural, media and academic class are the very worst kind of scum - even worse than ours, which is going it some.

You're married to one? Poor lass, you took what you could get you animal husbanderer. You swooped in and offered her candy, she said yes to that and to all your other smarmy offers. :shudder:

[Burney]

You're married to one? Poor lass, you took what you could get you animal husbanderer. You swooped in and offered her candy, she said yes to that and to all your other smarmy offers. :shudder:

Mate, you have to pay people to have sex with you :shrug:

[eastgermanautos]

Mate, you have to pay people to have sex with you :shrug:

Keeps it simple my man ;-)

[Ash]

Nah, my first gf and one of my glw's best mates are Canadians. Completely different kettle of fish to a Septic. Think war of 1812 and who was on who's side.

Ditto Kiwis aren't Convicts. I'm not that bothered if the All Blacks beat us. But the Ashes is life or death.

So in fact, the only four groups we're allowed to generalise about are Convicts, Septics, Chinks (for the invasion of Tibet) and 'Stanis (for obvious reasons.). Oh, and Northerners, of course.

Why do you give a stuff about Tibet? Thon death-cheating wossname is a bit of a fascist anyway, ISTR.

And if you've lived in this country and not been to the lake district you're a mug. :thumbup:

[Sir C]

Why do you give a stuff about Tibet? Thon death-cheating wossname is a bit of a fascist anyway, ISTR.

And if you've lived in this country and not been to the lake district you're a mug. :thumbup:

Eskdale in May :cloud9:

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Why do you give a stuff about Tibet? Thon death-cheating wossname is a bit of a fascist anyway, ISTR.

And if you've lived in this country and not been to the lake district you're a mug. :thumbup:

HHDL isn't a fascist in the slightest. I saw him stop the monsoon at the Kalachakra in Jispa in '94. And the glw filmed an audience he gave to her mate with a charity up there.*

When you see Indian Tibet, you realise how Tibet would be without the Chinks. The most beautiful culture on the planet. No poverty or inequality. Only place I've been where everyone's smiling all the time.

I have no idea why the left spreads lies about Tibet - I think they don't like religions as they're the opium of the masses or whatever.

But anyone who's ever been to Indian Tibet, Dharamsala where the govt in exile is, or even Delhi's Tibetan Colony in Majnu-ka Tila will tell you they are the nicest people on the planet.

I did go to the Lake District once. Not a patch on the Himalayas or the Amazon and involves far too much walking.

*HHDL has a little helper who wires him up with the radio mic etc. After she'd finished packing the stuff away, the helper goes "Perhaps you would like this?" And gave her a digital photo he took behind my glw. So you can see her gorgeous arse, as she's hunched over her camera and tripod, looking the consumate professional, Joan, her mate with the charity, has this look of rapt awe, while HHDL has his laughing hamster cheeks, spreading love.

When she showed me and told me the story, she said "It's so considerate of him, isn't it?"

To which I replied: "Well, his boss is the Bodhisattva of Compassion, so I reckon being incredibly considerate is part of the hob decsription."

And yes, I really did see him stop the monsoon.

I was trying to get from Ledakh (Indian Tibet) to Manali (to smoke lots of puff) but the bus stopped about half an hour from the change-over point. There had been a landslide, people had died, so the road was closed.

Spent a night at the truck stop and found out the next morning that there wouldn't be any busses until that night or tomorrow and that HHDL was down the road doing the Kalachakra - a week long ceremony for the final initiation into the priesthood for all the trainee monks in S. Asia.

There are 10k monks all smiling and laughing, and maybe 100 Gora hippies all looking at each other to see who has the straightest back.

We sit in the rain for half an hour. Then he walks out of his little hut, along a wooden walk-way up to the mic.

He looks at us. Looks up at the rain. Looks back at us and shakes his head.

He looks back up at the rain. As he stares at it, it slows to a drizzle, then stops, and then a tiny hole parts in the cloud, and the sun shines through directly down onto him.

He turns to the monks and gives a hand sign which they do back to him.

"Now I can start", he says.

[Ash]

Eskdale in May :cloud9:

Good man. Brothers Water and Legburthwaite (Thirlmere) in May for us. :-)

[Sir C]

Good man. Brothers Water and Legburthwaite (Thirlmere) in May for us. :-)

Nice. I want to get up Helvellyn this time but not via Striding Edge.

Fúck. That.

[Ash]

Nice. I want to get up Helvellyn this time but not via Striding Edge.

Fúck. That.

Go Swirrall Edge :thumbup: No bloody plastics and tourists cluttering the path up.

[Sir C]

Go Swirrall Edge :thumbup: No bloody plastics and tourists cluttering the path up.

Is there a nasty narrow bit to fall off? :-(

[Ash]

Is there a nasty narrow bit to fall off? :-(

Erm, don't remember tbh. Which possibly means there isn't, as I recall some pooper flappage on other ridges, but it is called an edge, after all, and one can never be too sure. I actually found the worst bit of striding edge to be the final ascent, rather than the edge itself, but that was years ago and I was not as much of a scaredy cat on edges and ledges as I am now in my dotage.

[Alberto Balsam Rodriguez]

I just think there wasn’t a single principled reason to vote Remain. :shrug:
There were reasons of fearfulness (after all, it’s called Project Fear because it works on the fearful); there were reasons of self-interest and convenience; and there were reasons of ideology (aka national self-loathing).
Now I can perhaps sympathise with some of those feelings, but I can’t respect them. Ultimately, this is why I can’t help but feel a certain contempt for most people who voted Remain.


If we took your statement, replace the word remain with the word leave, replace the term project fear with the term lies and false expectations, you would have reality.

[Burney]

Mate, you have to pay people to have sex with you :shrug:


If we took your statement, replace the word remain with the word leave, replace the term project fear with the term lies and false expectations, you would have reality.

We wouldn’t, though, since it is unarguable that - whatever its benefits - the EU is at the very least far less democratic and offers far less accountability than our pre-EU existence as a sovereign state. That is the fatal flaw of any pro-Remain argument.
To vote against that - despite self-interest and despite the huge difficulties - is an act of principle.
To vote against it in the vain hope of retaining a personally comfortable, but undemocratic status quo - is not.
You made your choice. Don’t come bitching about it to those of us with functioning spines. :shrug:

[Sir C]

Erm, don't remember tbh. Which possibly means there isn't, as I recall some pooper flappage on other ridges, but it is called an edge, after all, and one can never be too sure. I actually found the worst bit of striding edge to be the final ascent, rather than the edge itself, but that was years ago and I was not as much of a scaredy cat on edges and ledges as I am now in my dotage.

Maybe I’m not cut out for bagging wainwrights. Perhaps I’ll just wander about enjoy8ng the view.

[eastgermanautos]

We wouldn’t, though, since it is unarguable that - whatever its benefits - the EU is at the very least far less democratic and offers far less accountability than our pre-EU existence as a sovereign state. That is the fatal flaw of any pro-Remain argument.
To vote against that - despite self-interest and despite the huge difficulties - is an act of principle.
To vote against it in the vain hope of retaining a personally comfortable, but undemocratic status quo - is not.
You made your choice. Don’t come bitching about it to those of us with functioning spines. :shrug:

People who make bad decisions always cite their staunchness, their unwaveringness. Like getting a facial tattoo. Sure, maybe it's badass getting one, maybe it's the right thing to do. (There are some subcultures in which it's approved and almost expected.) But you'll have a tough time getting a job as a bank teller after.

And this is essentially what your Brexit is. It's a tattoo on the face of the British nation.

[WES]

We wouldn’t, though, since it is unarguable that - whatever its benefits - the EU is at the very least far less democratic and offers far less accountability than our pre-EU existence as a sovereign state. That is the fatal flaw of any pro-Remain argument.
To vote against that - despite self-interest and despite the huge difficulties - is an act of principle.
To vote against it in the vain hope of retaining a personally comfortable, but undemocratic status quo - is not.
You made your choice. Don’t come bitching about it to those of us with functioning spines. :shrug:

The counter argument to that is that to sacrifice the sort of democracy that would provide us with more control of our borders, laws and money in order to ensure a higher standard of living and a more diverse, inclusive, multi-cultural experience for ourselves and our children is also an act of principle. You seem to mistake a lack of principle with holding different principles than you. And your definition of democracy seems to be involve British people only; there’s no room in your world for swarthy foreigners having a finger in your democratic world. Presumably this is another one of your principles; one shared by people like Nigel Farage and UKIP voters in places like Basildon.

You should be careful about invoking ‘principles’ in this argument, Burney, you risk people pointing out some of the less savoury principles associated with so many of the Leave voters.

[Monty92]

The counter argument to that is that to sacrifice the sort of democracy that would provide us with more control of our borders, laws and money in order to ensure a higher standard of living and a more diverse, inclusive, multi-cultural experience for ourselves and our children is also an act of principle. You seem to mistake a lack of principle with holding different principles than you. And your definition of democracy seems to be involve British people only; there’s no room in your world for swarthy foreigners having a finger in your democratic world. Presumably this is another one of your principles; one shared by people like Nigel Farage and UKIP voters in places like Basildon.

You should be careful about invoking ‘principles’ in this argument, Burney, you risk people pointing out some of the less savoury principles associated with so many of the Leave voters.

I'm no fan of the bloke, but Nigel Farage is pro-immigration, certainly to the extent that he believes we should still continue to allow significant numbers of immigrants coming into the country after Brexit :shrug:

[WES]

I'm no fan of the bloke, but Nigel Farage is pro-immigration, certainly to the extent that he believes we should still continue to allow significant numbers of immigrants coming into the country after Brexit :shrug:

https://images.app.goo.gl/GjJq8KaqR5G7z1jX9

[Monty92]

https://images.app.goo.gl/GjJq8KaqR5G7z1jX9

Well that's told me :rolleyes:

[eastgermanautos]

The counter argument to that is that to sacrifice the sort of democracy that would provide us with more control of our borders, laws and money in order to ensure a higher standard of living and a more diverse, inclusive, multi-cultural experience for ourselves and our children is also an act of principle. You seem to mistake a lack of principle with holding different principles than you. And your definition of democracy seems to be involve British people only; there’s no room in your world for swarthy foreigners having a finger in your democratic world. Presumably this is another one of your principles; one shared by people like Nigel Farage and UKIP voters in places like Basildon.

You should be careful about invoking ‘principles’ in this argument, Burney, you risk people pointing out some of the less savoury principles associated with so many of the Leave voters.

WES! Dropping that knowledge. Edumacate these fools. I'm a bit of a Keynesian myself. Therefore I don't like all this protectionism. Little-known fact: John Maynard Keynes was 6'7". Sign him Emery to shore up our leaky defense.