My worry is that this anti-Semitism stuff has a limited shelf-life and will blow over

[Monty92]

when media interest returns to more interminable issues like Brexit and all this Facebook data wánkery.

However, it would be utterly criminal of the Tory party not to do everything in their power to ensure the story keeps rolling and that further damage is inflicted.The fact that the shadow cabinet – and in more moderate language the leadership itself – has now acknowledged institutional racism within its own party, there are still huge opportunities to be had.

I have absolutely no faith that these opportunities will be grasped, but if I was a Tory strategist I’d be mobilising every Tory MP, local councillor and supporter around the country to help do the following at the very least.

1) Continue to taint Corbyn by association by dredging up all of the times he’s turned a blind eye, or failed to adequately respond , to anti-Semitism in his party (of which there must be at least 50 examples since he was made leader). But crucially, discourage people from EVER explicitly referring to Corbyn himself as an anti-Semite, as this will too easily be shrugged off by his supporters and non-partisan observers as conspiratorial and part of a smear campaign (we learned from the general election that this isn’t effective)

2) Use this whole episode to implicate Momentum as being central to the (now officially recognised) institutional anti-Semitism within the Labour party. Achieve this by airing the fact that not a single Momentum member has stepped into the breach and condemned (or even acknowledged) this institutional racism. If no-one at Momentum – individually or collectively - is willing to do this, they must therefore be considered part of the problem.

3) Take a leaf out of the Allans’ book and play the race card at every opportunity. Monitor social media for any pronouncements made by Labour members and supporters who refuse to toe the new party line and continue to claim this is all a conspiracy designed to undermine Corbyn - and of course anyone who criticises Israel. The atmosphere right now means that any such claim will be considered, at the very least, part of the problem. Literally any time someone issues this sentiment, share it widely, retweet it and tag Corbyn’s Twitter account, asking him that he’s going to do about it. Pile on the pressure and don’t stop. The right wing media will help fan these flames and even the centre left media can’t help themselves when it comes to airing twitter storms.

Literally none of this will happen because the Tories are fúcking useless :-(

[Pokster]

when media interest returns to more interminable issues like Brexit and all this Facebook data wánkery.

However, it would be utterly criminal of the Tory party not to do everything in their power to ensure the story keeps rolling and that further damage is inflicted.The fact that the shadow cabinet – and in more moderate language the leadership itself – has now acknowledged institutional racism within its own party, there are still huge opportunities to be had.

I have absolutely no faith that these opportunities will be grasped, but if I was a Tory strategist I’d be mobilising every Tory MP, local councillor and supporter around the country to help do the following at the very least.

1) Continue to taint Corbyn by association by dredging up all of the times he’s turned a blind eye, or failed to adequately respond , to anti-Semitism in his party (of which there must be at least 50 examples since he was made leader). But crucially, discourage people from EVER explicitly referring to Corbyn himself as an anti-Semite, as this will too easily be shrugged off by his supporters and non-partisan observers as conspiratorial and part of a smear campaign (we learned from the general election that this isn’t effective)

2) Use this whole episode to implicate Momentum as being central to the (now officially recognised) institutional anti-Semitism within the Labour party. Achieve this by airing the fact that not a single Momentum member has stepped into the breach and condemned (or even acknowledged) this institutional racism. If no-one at Momentum – individually or collectively - is willing to do this, they must therefore be considered part of the problem.

3) Take a leaf out of the Allans’ book and play the race card at every opportunity. Monitor social media for any pronouncements made by Labour members and supporters who refuse to toe the new party line and continue to claim this is all a conspiracy designed to undermine Corbyn - and of course anyone who criticises Israel. The atmosphere right now means that any such claim will be considered, at the very least, part of the problem. Literally any time someone issues this sentiment, share it widely, retweet it and tag Corbyn’s Twitter account, asking him that he’s going to do about it. Pile on the pressure and don’t stop. The right wing media will help fan these flames and even the centre left media can’t help themselves when it comes to airing twitter storms.

Literally none of this will happen because the Tories are fúcking useless :-(

And the main problem is that a small % might not vote Labour because of this, but the huge majority of the population vote for what effects them, NHS, Education, Tax, Brexit etc..... people might have moral outrage but at the end of the day they want what is best for them

[Peter]

when media interest returns to more interminable issues like Brexit and all this Facebook data wánkery.

However, it would be utterly criminal of the Tory party not to do everything in their power to ensure the story keeps rolling and that further damage is inflicted.The fact that the shadow cabinet – and in more moderate language the leadership itself – has now acknowledged institutional racism within its own party, there are still huge opportunities to be had.

I have absolutely no faith that these opportunities will be grasped, but if I was a Tory strategist I’d be mobilising every Tory MP, local councillor and supporter around the country to help do the following at the very least.

1) Continue to taint Corbyn by association by dredging up all of the times he’s turned a blind eye, or failed to adequately respond , to anti-Semitism in his party (of which there must be at least 50 examples since he was made leader). But crucially, discourage people from EVER explicitly referring to Corbyn himself as an anti-Semite, as this will too easily be shrugged off by his supporters and non-partisan observers as conspiratorial and part of a smear campaign (we learned from the general election that this isn’t effective)

2) Use this whole episode to implicate Momentum as being central to the (now officially recognised) institutional anti-Semitism within the Labour party. Achieve this by airing the fact that not a single Momentum member has stepped into the breach and condemned (or even acknowledged) this institutional racism. If no-one at Momentum – individually or collectively - is willing to do this, they must therefore be considered part of the problem.

3) Take a leaf out of the Allans’ book and play the race card at every opportunity. Monitor social media for any pronouncements made by Labour members and supporters who refuse to toe the new party line and continue to claim this is all a conspiracy designed to undermine Corbyn - and of course anyone who criticises Israel. The atmosphere right now means that any such claim will be considered, at the very least, part of the problem. Literally any time someone issues this sentiment, share it widely, retweet it and tag Corbyn’s Twitter account, asking him that he’s going to do about it. Pile on the pressure and don’t stop. The right wing media will help fan these flames and even the centre left media can’t help themselves when it comes to airing twitter storms.

Literally none of this will happen because the Tories are fúcking useless :-(

Racism and anti-semitism are not Tory issues. Focusing attention on those issues doesnt help them.

You are right in point 1 though. THe idea is not to suggest that Corbyn is an anti semite, just a useless pawn in the game- a leader not remotely in control of his party. In politics, that is far worse than being seen as anti-semitic.

THen there is the bigger issue of whether they want rid of him. THey may be 50/50 on that....

[Monty92]

And the main problem is that a small % might not vote Labour because of this, but the huge majority of the population vote for what effects them, NHS, Education, Tax, Brexit etc..... people might have moral outrage but at the end of the day they want what is best for them

Agree, but it is not inconceivable that if the stars alligned favourably this issue could force Corbyn out, not just reduce Labour votes at the next GE.

[Pokster]

Agree, but it is not inconceivable that if the stars alligned favourably this issue could force Corbyn out.

Possibly.... but he seems to have more lives than your cancer riddled cat

[Monty92]

Racism and anti-semitism are not Tory issues. Focusing attention on those issues doesnt help them.

You are right in point 1 though. THe idea is not to suggest that Corbyn is an anti semite, just a useless pawn in the game- a leader not remotely in control of his party. In politics, that is far worse than being seen as anti-semitic.

THen there is the bigger issue of whether they want rid of him. THey may be 50/50 on that....

But what is happening is the equivalent to the Tory party being discovered (and admitting), in 2018, to be as institutionally racist as it was in 1970, all the way up to the leadership itself. That is a huge deal.

[Sir C]

when media interest returns to more interminable issues like Brexit and all this Facebook data wánkery.

However, it would be utterly criminal of the Tory party not to do everything in their power to ensure the story keeps rolling and that further damage is inflicted.The fact that the shadow cabinet – and in more moderate language the leadership itself – has now acknowledged institutional racism within its own party, there are still huge opportunities to be had.

I have absolutely no faith that these opportunities will be grasped, but if I was a Tory strategist I’d be mobilising every Tory MP, local councillor and supporter around the country to help do the following at the very least.

1) Continue to taint Corbyn by association by dredging up all of the times he’s turned a blind eye, or failed to adequately respond , to anti-Semitism in his party (of which there must be at least 50 examples since he was made leader). But crucially, discourage people from EVER explicitly referring to Corbyn himself as an anti-Semite, as this will too easily be shrugged off by his supporters and non-partisan observers as conspiratorial and part of a smear campaign (we learned from the general election that this isn’t effective)

2) Use this whole episode to implicate Momentum as being central to the (now officially recognised) institutional anti-Semitism within the Labour party. Achieve this by airing the fact that not a single Momentum member has stepped into the breach and condemned (or even acknowledged) this institutional racism. If no-one at Momentum – individually or collectively - is willing to do this, they must therefore be considered part of the problem.

3) Take a leaf out of the Allans’ book and play the race card at every opportunity. Monitor social media for any pronouncements made by Labour members and supporters who refuse to toe the new party line and continue to claim this is all a conspiracy designed to undermine Corbyn - and of course anyone who criticises Israel. The atmosphere right now means that any such claim will be considered, at the very least, part of the problem. Literally any time someone issues this sentiment, share it widely, retweet it and tag Corbyn’s Twitter account, asking him that he’s going to do about it. Pile on the pressure and don’t stop. The right wing media will help fan these flames and even the centre left media can’t help themselves when it comes to airing twitter storms.

Literally none of this will happen because the Tories are fúcking useless :-(

They should ignore the anti-semitism angle and concentrate on the really good stuff: he's a teetotal vegetarian, for Christ's sake. Once that news gets out, he's finished. No oine in their right mind would vote for a teetotal vegetarian.

[World's End Stella]

They should ignore the anti-semitism angle and concentrate on the really good stuff: he's a teetotal vegetarian, for Christ's sake. Once that news gets out, he's finished. No oine in their right mind would vote for a teetotal vegetarian.

Whenever I speak about Corbyn to a lefty I always dismiss him with 'he's a communist who failed his A levels, we should be able to do better'.

Seems to really wind them up. :-)

[Sir C]

Whenever I speak about Corbyn to a lefty I always dismiss him with 'he's a communist who failed his A levels, we should be able to do better'.

Seems to really wind them up. :-)

I advise against this whole 'speaking to lefties' idea. No good can ever come of it.

[Burney]

when media interest returns to more interminable issues like Brexit and all this Facebook data wánkery.

However, it would be utterly criminal of the Tory party not to do everything in their power to ensure the story keeps rolling and that further damage is inflicted.The fact that the shadow cabinet – and in more moderate language the leadership itself – has now acknowledged institutional racism within its own party, there are still huge opportunities to be had.

I have absolutely no faith that these opportunities will be grasped, but if I was a Tory strategist I’d be mobilising every Tory MP, local councillor and supporter around the country to help do the following at the very least.

1) Continue to taint Corbyn by association by dredging up all of the times he’s turned a blind eye, or failed to adequately respond , to anti-Semitism in his party (of which there must be at least 50 examples since he was made leader). But crucially, discourage people from EVER explicitly referring to Corbyn himself as an anti-Semite, as this will too easily be shrugged off by his supporters and non-partisan observers as conspiratorial and part of a smear campaign (we learned from the general election that this isn’t effective)

2) Use this whole episode to implicate Momentum as being central to the (now officially recognised) institutional anti-Semitism within the Labour party. Achieve this by airing the fact that not a single Momentum member has stepped into the breach and condemned (or even acknowledged) this institutional racism. If no-one at Momentum – individually or collectively - is willing to do this, they must therefore be considered part of the problem.

3) Take a leaf out of the Allans’ book and play the race card at every opportunity. Monitor social media for any pronouncements made by Labour members and supporters who refuse to toe the new party line and continue to claim this is all a conspiracy designed to undermine Corbyn - and of course anyone who criticises Israel. The atmosphere right now means that any such claim will be considered, at the very least, part of the problem. Literally any time someone issues this sentiment, share it widely, retweet it and tag Corbyn’s Twitter account, asking him that he’s going to do about it. Pile on the pressure and don’t stop. The right wing media will help fan these flames and even the centre left media can’t help themselves when it comes to airing twitter storms.

Literally none of this will happen because the Tories are fúcking useless :-(

The danger is that, by hammering away at the one issue, it starts to look like a Tory strategy rather than genuine outrage at new revelations as they emerge. If it becomes too obvious that you're seeking to destroy an individual, you can too easily increase sympathy for him. Better instead to keep the anti-semitism bubbling under as a means to undermine his claims to the moral high ground while continuing to chip away at the public's already shaky confidence in him as a potential leader.

Mind you, I genuinely don't believe this country will ever vote for a Corbyn-led government, so getting rid of him isn't a priority to me. At present, I think the best thing all round is a Labour party at war with itself and thus unable to provide a coherent opposition. For that, it's best that Corbyn remain in place.

[Monty92]

The danger is that, by hammering away at the one issue, it starts to look like a Tory strategy rather than genuine outrage at new revelations as they emerge. If it becomes too obvious that you're seeking to destroy an individual, you can too easily increase sympathy for him. Better instead to keep the anti-semitism bubbling under as a means to undermine his claims to the moral high ground while continuing to chip away at the public's already shaky confidence in him as a potential leader.

Mind you, I genuinely don't believe this country will ever vote for a Corbyn-led government, so getting rid of him isn't a priority to me. At present, I think the best thing all round is a Labour party at war with itself and thus unable to provide a coherent opposition. For that, it's best that Corbyn remain in place.

But you seemed to think it was possible that the final Brexit deal would be voted down by Parliament, which would certainly lead to a new Tory leader and a General Election. You're still confident that Corbyn wouldn't be voted in under those circumstances?

[Pokster]

The danger is that, by hammering away at the one issue, it starts to look like a Tory strategy rather than genuine outrage at new revelations as they emerge. If it becomes too obvious that you're seeking to destroy an individual, you can too easily increase sympathy for him. Better instead to keep the anti-semitism bubbling under as a means to undermine his claims to the moral high ground while continuing to chip away at the public's already shaky confidence in him as a potential leader.

Mind you, I genuinely don't believe this country will ever vote for a Corbyn-led government, so getting rid of him isn't a priority to me. At present, I think the best thing all round is a Labour party at war with itself and thus unable to provide a coherent opposition. For that, it's best that Corbyn remain in place.

So you want an opposotion that isn't coherent??? I would have thought that having a strong opposition is a benefit to the country, having a rubbish opposition means the Govt can act how it likes without the best interest of the country at heart.

[eastgermanautos]

when media interest returns to more interminable issues like Brexit and all this Facebook data wánkery.

However, it would be utterly criminal of the Tory party not to do everything in their power to ensure the story keeps rolling and that further damage is inflicted.The fact that the shadow cabinet – and in more moderate language the leadership itself – has now acknowledged institutional racism within its own party, there are still huge opportunities to be had.

I have absolutely no faith that these opportunities will be grasped, but if I was a Tory strategist I’d be mobilising every Tory MP, local councillor and supporter around the country to help do the following at the very least.

1) Continue to taint Corbyn by association by dredging up all of the times he’s turned a blind eye, or failed to adequately respond , to anti-Semitism in his party (of which there must be at least 50 examples since he was made leader). But crucially, discourage people from EVER explicitly referring to Corbyn himself as an anti-Semite, as this will too easily be shrugged off by his supporters and non-partisan observers as conspiratorial and part of a smear campaign (we learned from the general election that this isn’t effective)

2) Use this whole episode to implicate Momentum as being central to the (now officially recognised) institutional anti-Semitism within the Labour party. Achieve this by airing the fact that not a single Momentum member has stepped into the breach and condemned (or even acknowledged) this institutional racism. If no-one at Momentum – individually or collectively - is willing to do this, they must therefore be considered part of the problem.

3) Take a leaf out of the Allans’ book and play the race card at every opportunity. Monitor social media for any pronouncements made by Labour members and supporters who refuse to toe the new party line and continue to claim this is all a conspiracy designed to undermine Corbyn - and of course anyone who criticises Israel. The atmosphere right now means that any such claim will be considered, at the very least, part of the problem. Literally any time someone issues this sentiment, share it widely, retweet it and tag Corbyn’s Twitter account, asking him that he’s going to do about it. Pile on the pressure and don’t stop. The right wing media will help fan these flames and even the centre left media can’t help themselves when it comes to airing twitter storms.

Literally none of this will happen because the Tories are fúcking useless :-(

And so Labour people are anti-semitic because they nod to the opinions of the man in the street? This average worker person believes, to some extent, in the might of the Rothschilds and fears being taken advantage of by "Jews." Is that it? So the Labour leaders are pandering filth who should be hit over the head with a shovel?

Gottit, proceed. ;-)

[Burney]

But you seemed to think it was possible that the final Brexit deal would be voted down by Parliament, which would certainly lead to a new Tory leader and a General Election. You're still confident that Corbyn wouldn't be voted in under those circumstances?

No. Oddly enough, I don't. However, as I say, I think even the vague possibility of Corbyn becoming PM has a suitably sobering effect on the Tories and prevents them going completely spastic.

All in all, he has a value.

[Sir C]

And so Labour people are anti-semitic because they nod to the opinions of the man in the street? This average worker person believes, to some extent, in the might of the Rothschilds and fears being taken advantage of by "Jews." Is that it? So the Labour leaders are pandering filth who should be hit over the head with a shovel?

Gottit, proceed. ;-)

The average Joe in this country is absolutely not anti-semitic because he never gives jews a second thought.

Try wandering around Golder's Green on a Saturday lunchtime seeking an honest salt beef sandwich, as I once did, and you'll quickly learn just how quickly anti-semitism can rise in the breast of the most liberal of thinkers.

[Monty92]

The average Joe in this country is absolutely not anti-semitic because he never gives jews a second thought.

Try wandering around Golder's Green on a Saturday lunchtime seeking an honest salt beef sandwich, as I once did, and you'll quickly learn just how quickly anti-semitism can rise in the breast of the most liberal of thinkers.

You need to duck north up the Finchey Road towards Temple Fortune to get a decent salt beef sandwich around there. Charming little family-run deli on the left by the Henley's Corner intersection. Oddly, when I visited a weeks ago there were a couple of Allans clad in all the gear sitting having a cup of tea.

Nice, I suppose.

[Sir C]

You need to duck north up the Finchey Road towards Temple Fortune to get a decent salt beef sandwich around there. Charming little family-run deli on the left by the Henley's Corner intersection. Oddly, when I visited a weeks ago there were a couple of Allans clad in all the gear sitting having a cup of tea.

Nice, I suppose.

Open on a Saturday morning? Hmm?

[Burney]

The average Joe in this country is absolutely not anti-semitic because he never gives jews a second thought.

Try wandering around Golder's Green on a Saturday lunchtime seeking an honest salt beef sandwich, as I once did, and you'll quickly learn just how quickly anti-semitism can rise in the breast of the most liberal of thinkers.

I find that any appearance on television by Alan Yentob can make me go a bit Der Sturmer, tbh.

[Monty92]

I find that any appearance on television by Alan Yentob can make me go a bit Der Sturmer, tbh.

David Baddiel, for me. It doesn't help that his obnoxious appearance is indelibly linked with his Jewishness.

Weird hearing him talk about this stuff yesterday. He said if Labour can get a grip of the problem, he'll continue to vote for them. So he's happy to vote for a man that's called Hamas and Hezbollah his friends and offered his hand of friendship to a man imprisoned for issuing the blood libel? Right you are, David.

[Burney]

David Baddiel, for me. It doesn't help that his obnoxious appearance is indelibly linked with his Jewishness.

Weird hearing him talk about this stuff yesterday. He said if Labour can get a grip of the problem, he'll continue to vote for them. So he's happy to vote for a man that's called Hamas and Hezbollah his friends and offered his hand of friendship to a man imprisoned for issuing the blood libel? Right you are, David.

Yes. But he gets really upset when Tottenham fans refer to themselves as yids. Odd moral compass he's got there. :shrug:

[Peter]

But what is happening is the equivalent to the Tory party being discovered (and admitting), in 2018, to be as institutionally racist as it was in 1970, all the way up to the leadership itself. That is a huge deal.

Its a storm but it isnt something that kills them at the polls. People who are terribly worried about institutional racism simply dont vote conservative. As Pokster says, there is a difference between what people will get excited about as a news story and what will actually affect their vote.

THe whole point of an election campaign is to focus the debate on your issues. An election about racism is never going to help the conservatives. Also, the classy thing to do here is stand and watch as the labour party rips itself to pieces. THe one thing the left in britain Has always excelled at is infighting and self destruction.

[Monty92]

Its a storm but it isnt something that kills them at the polls. People who are terribly worried about institutional racism simply dont vote conservative. As Pokster says, there is a difference between what people will get excited about as a news story and what will actually affect their vote.

THe whole point of an election campaign is to focus the debate on your issues. An election about racism is never going to help the conservatives. Also, the classy thing to do here is stand and watch as the labour party rips itself to pieces. THe one thing the left in britain Has always excelled at is infighting and self destruction.

I'm not talking about this damaging Labour at the next election. I'm talking about implementing a hugely cynical and opportunistic campaign that is subtle enough to appear as if it's not being directly engineered or encouraged by the Tory party itself but that will ensure the issue doesn't go away and ultimately serves to undermine Corbyn so that his own party turns against him in a way that is catastrophic for his leadership.

[Burney]

I'm not talking about this damaging Labour at the next election. I'm talking about implementing a hugely cynical and opportunistic campaign that is subtle enough to appear as if it's not being directly engineered or encouraged by the Tory party itself but that will ensure the issue doesn't go away and ultimately serves to undermine Corbyn so that his own party turns against him in a way that is catastrophic for his leadership.

Thing is, people are horribly susceptible to conspiracy theories at the best of times. One hint of an 'establishment stitch-up' and it's Jezza the Martyr.

[Monty92]

Thing is, people are horribly susceptible to conspiracy theories at the best of times. One hint of an 'establishment stitch-up' and it's Jezza the Martyr.

That's why it has to be subtle and, if possible, media-led rather than Tory party led. And the beauty is, anyone who claims it's a smear is, in the current atmosphere, instantly condemned as part of the problem.

They literally have nowhere to turn.

Right now I'm watching Daily Politics and Andrew Neill is doing exactly what I'm proposing. He's got a Labour MP on and is giving him a torrid time, throwing examples at him of all the Labour members who have made anti-semitic comments and remained in the party and asking him why. He's absolutely squirming.

Labour can't possibly throw out everyone who's said something dubious about Israel or Jews - it would half their membership. And so people should keep turning the screw...

[Peter]

I'm not talking about this damaging Labour at the next election. I'm talking about implementing a hugely cynical and opportunistic campaign that is subtle enough to appear as if it's not being directly engineered or encouraged by the Tory party itself but that will ensure the issue doesn't go away and ultimately serves to undermine Corbyn so that his own party turns against him in a way that is catastrophic for his leadership.

Which means that if they do it properly you won't know about it and will criticise them for not having done it :)

This is the type of thing that spins itself and anything other than the occasional nudge or subtle leak from people associated with the Torres will seem like cynical politics over a very serious issue (of course, it really isnt that serious at all).

The tactic May will use in public will involve never even mentioning the issue specifically but nodding towards it as another indication of Corbyn's lack of leadership of his own party. If he cant even run his own party etc etc....

I think we are getting a little carried away over this whole thing and there is a danger it could get more complicated for everyone if it splinters into conversations about Israel vs good old anti-semitism. If you are Theresa May you certainly dont want to be answering questions about Israel and Palestine all the time. Even worse, youdontwant Boris getting asked them.

If I was advising May at this point I would be telling her to leave this one alone.

[Peter]

Thing is, people are horribly susceptible to conspiracy theories at the best of times. One hint of an 'establishment stitch-up' and it's Jezza the Martyr.

Of course there is also the notion that Israel rather cynically exploits the conflation Of anti-zionism and anti-semitism to ensure that all criticism of its actions are written off as anti-semitism. You know, the way you claim Muslims use the term islamophobia.

I do think Corbyn's insistence on giving balanced answers to all these sorts of questions is a difficult sell in a news cycle. Denying you are anti-semitic but criticising Israel wont help put this to bed....

[Burney]

That's why it has to be subtle and, if possible, media-led rather than Tory party led. And the beauty is, anyone who claims it's a smear is, in the current atmosphere, instantly condemned as part of the problem.

They literally have nowhere to turn.

Right now I'm watching Daily Politics and Andrew Neill is doing exactly what I'm proposing. He's got a Labour MP on and is giving him a torrid time, throwing examples at him of all the Labour members who have made anti-semitic comments and remained in the party and asking him why. He's absolutely squirming.

Labour can't possibly throw out everyone who's said something dubious about Israel or Jews - it would half their membership. And so people should keep turning the screw...

I agree. But there is a law of diminishing returns with these things. The more you hammer away on one topic, the less shock value the accusations have and the less attention is paid to them. Issues have a shelf-life. If you continue past that shelf life, you risk the public thinking 'change the record, ffs' and thinking that you're flogging a dead horse. What's more, the more they will start to suspect co-ordination and collusion.

To do the most damage, there needs to be a steady drip-drip of these revelations over a long period with occasional major flare-ups such as the one now. That discredits Labour and means it can be knocked off balance with regularity and can't mount any effective or sustained attacks on the tories.

[Burney]

Of course there is also the notion that Israel rather cynically exploits the conflation Of anti-zionism and anti-semitism to ensure that all criticism of its actions are written off as anti-semitism. You know, the way you claim Muslims use the term islamophobia.

I do think Corbyn's insistence on giving balanced answers to all these sorts of questions is a difficult sell in a news cycle. Denying you are anti-semitic but criticising Israel wont help put this to bed....

For Corbyn, the mural thing was the real killer since the mural in question had nothing to do with Israel, but contained blatantly anti-semitic imagery and Corbyn gave it his endorsement.

So I would put it another way and say that it is quite helpful to this conflation you suggest that so many of the people who attack Israel - like Corbyn - also happen to be repulsive anti-semites.

[Pokster]

For Corbyn, the mural thing was the real killer since the mural in question had nothing to do with Israel, but contained blatantly anti-semitic imagery and Corbyn gave it his endorsement.

So I would put it another way and say that it is quite helpful to this conflation you suggest that so many of the people who attack Israel - like Corbyn - also happen to be repulsive anti-semites.

Problem is I would suggest 99% of the population aren't that bothered about it and feel there are more important things to be concerned about (rightly or wrongly)

[Burney]

Problem is I would suggest 99% of the population aren't that bothered about it and feel there are more important things to be concerned about (rightly or wrongly)

Of course. But this stuff does resonate and have an effect. Look at today's PMQs. Corbyn had the opportunity to get a Minister (rightly) sacked over the John Worboys thing and - incomprehensibly - totally missed it. You have to wonder how much of that is his own deep reserves of stupidity and incompetence and how much it's an effect of the anti-semitism stuff putting Labour off balance, damaging their confidence and taking their eye off the ball.

[Pokster]

Of course. But this stuff does resonate and have an effect. Look at today's PMQs. Corbyn had the opportunity to get a Minister (rightly) sacked over the John Worboys thing and - incomprehensibly - totally missed it. You have to wonder how much of that is his own deep reserves of stupidity and incompetence and how much it's an effect of the anti-semitism stuff putting Labour off balance, damaging their confidence and taking their eye off the ball.

Again, the problem is that a weak opposition is bad for the country, we have a weak Govt as it is

[Peter]

Of course. But this stuff does resonate and have an effect. Look at today's PMQs. Corbyn had the opportunity to get a Minister (rightly) sacked over the John Worboys thing and - incomprehensibly - totally missed it. You have to wonder how much of that is his own deep reserves of stupidity and incompetence and how much it's an effect of the anti-semitism stuff putting Labour off balance, damaging their confidence and taking their eye off the ball.

I think that is his (largely misguided) belief that he should focus on issues rather than scoring points. Its no way to behave in politics.

[SWv2]

I think that is his (largely misguided) belief that he should focus on issues rather than scoring points. Its no way to behave in politics.

Good man Pedro.

:hehe:

[Peter]

Good man Pedro.

:hehe:

Its true. This isnt the Oxford Union. Its professional politics and its about courting favour, however it's achieved.

[Burney]

Again, the problem is that a weak opposition is bad for the country, we have a weak Govt as it is

At the moment, I think a weak opposition is a godsend. The EU is seizing on any and every weakness in the UK's internal politics to kick us in the b0llocks over Brexit. An effective opposition committed to reversing the vote would only ensure the worst possible outcome from these negotiations.

[Burney]

I think that is his (largely misguided) belief that he should focus on issues rather than scoring points. Its no way to behave in politics.

:hehe: Spare me the 'Jezza is a principled naif set adrift in the cesspit of cynicism' bit, p.

I think it's more to do with the fact that he's too fvcking thick to score the points.

[Peter]

:hehe: Spare me the 'Jezza is a principled naif set adrift in the cesspit of cynicism' bit, p.

I think it's more to do with the fact that he's too fvcking thick to score the points.

Don't be silly. Nobody is that thick.

Its all about the 'new type of politics' isnt it. Its what people want apparently.

I favour the points scoring model.....

[Burney]

Don't be silly. Nobody is that thick.

Its all about the 'new type of politics' isnt it. Its what people want apparently.

I favour the points scoring model.....

He absolutely is that thick. Have you ever watched him be interviewed? That's not benign condescension that makes him that impassive. It's stupidity. Real, profound stupidity.

[Peter]

He absolutely is that thick. Have you ever watched him be interviewed? That's not benign condescension that makes him that impassive. It's stupidity. Real, profound stupidity.

If it brings you some comfort to believe that.....

He really is a decent, intelligent man who wants what's best for britain, b.

[Burney]

If it brings you some comfort to believe that.....

He really is a decent, intelligent man who wants what's best for britain, b.

Just fvck off, p. I know you're just trying to wind me up. :hehe:

[Peter]

Just fvck off, p. I know you're just trying to wind me up. :hehe:

One day you will be angry enough to fall for one of those :hehe::hehe:

[eastgermanautos]

The average Joe in this country is absolutely not anti-semitic because he never gives jews a second thought.

Try wandering around Golder's Green on a Saturday lunchtime seeking an honest salt beef sandwich, as I once did, and you'll quickly learn just how quickly anti-semitism can rise in the breast of the most liberal of thinkers.

Well I feel that we Americans are pretty anti-semitic, because, whenever we'd like to lay into blacks, we find it more acceptable to lay into Jews. Then we go ahead and lay into blacks as well. ;-)

[Burney]

Well I feel that we Americans are pretty anti-semitic, because, whenever we'd like to lay into blacks, we find it more acceptable to lay into Jews. Then we go ahead and lay into blacks as well. ;-)

Yeah, but your blacks hate Jews even more than your whites.

[eastgermanautos]

Yeah, but your blacks hate Jews even more than your whites.

Real talk, man. And yet, the Jewish peoples have been custodians of the honor of the black man. Look at all those Jewish lawyers who represented the Black Panthers back in the day.