Surely the most meaningless recent news story that has received significant coverage

[World's End Stella]

is the Leave campaign going about 600K over the spending limit?

Does anyone really think it made any difference or really give a toss?

Other than Ian Harvey, I mean.

[Burney]

is the Leave campaign going about 600K over the spending limit?

Does anyone really think it made any difference or really give a toss?

Other than Ian Harvey, I mean.

Nope. It's just a respectable middle-class conspiracy theory that relies for its impact on the essentially snobbish idea that those who voted Leave are malleable, mentally-deficient slobs who can be led by the nose. Meanwhile, of course, all Remain voters are cast as deep political and economic thinkers who are entirely resistant to political manipulation.

In short, it's balls.

[PSRB]

Nope. It's just a respectable middle-class conspiracy theory that relies for its impact on the essentially snobbish idea that those who voted Leave are malleable, mentally-deficient slobs who can be led by the nose. Meanwhile, of course, all Remain voters are cast as deep political and economic thinkers who are entirely resistant to political manipulation.

In short, it's balls.

Leave voters are all inherently racist as well, lets not forget that.......

[Peter]

Nope. It's just a respectable middle-class conspiracy theory that relies for its impact on the essentially snobbish idea that those who voted Leave are malleable, mentally-deficient slobs who can be led by the nose. Meanwhile, of course, all Remain voters are cast as deep political and economic thinkers who are entirely resistant to political manipulation.

In short, it's balls.

No, it isnt. It is the belief that democracy is not merely an arbitrary expression of the public will but a process, adhered to by all. Every democracyin history has acknowledged this.

THose rules ensure a fair, free and open election. Where they are trampled upon a meaningful public mandate cannot possibly exist as a result. There is no choice here- we simply must hold another referendum, if democracy is to mean anything in these islands.

As an ardent defender of democracy you will obviously agree :)

[World's End Stella]

No, it isnt. It is the belief that democracy is not merely an arbitrary expression of the public will but a process, adhered to by all. Every democracyin history has acknowledged this.

THose rules ensure a fair, free and open election. Where they are trampled upon a meaningful public mandate cannot possibly exist as a result. There is no choice here- we simply must hold another referendum, if democracy is to mean anything in these islands.

As an ardent defender of democracy you will obviously agree :)

:hehe: You've seriously overplayed your hand there, Peter old bean.

[Peter]

:hehe: You've seriously overplayed your hand there, Peter old bean.

We either cherish democracy or we do not :)

[Burney]

No, it isnt. It is the belief that democracy is not merely an arbitrary expression of the public will but a process, adhered to by all. Every democracyin history has acknowledged this.

THose rules ensure a fair, free and open election. Where they are trampled upon a meaningful public mandate cannot possibly exist as a result. There is no choice here- we simply must hold another referendum, if democracy is to mean anything in these islands.

As an ardent defender of democracy you will obviously agree :)

:hehe: Remain were supported by public money spent by the ACTUAL FVCKING GOVERNMENT on leaflets telling us to vote for it.

Remainers just sound like card sharps complaining that the other guy cheated better

[Peter]

:hehe: Remain were supported by public money spent by the ACTUAL FVCKING GOVERNMENT on leaflets telling us to vote for it.

Remainers just sound like card sharps complaining that the other guy cheated better

So you admit they cheated :o

[Burney]

So you admit they cheated :o

Actually, I neither know nor care whether they cheated. I'm just saying that I find the establishment and its supporters' fury that the massive intrinsic advantages held by the Remain camp still weren't enough to win it the referendum and their desperate flailing about for any other reason to explain it than the fact that a majority really wanted to leave the EU by turns amusing and pathetic.

[Peter]

Actually, I neither know nor care whether they cheated. I'm just saying that I find the establishment and its supporters' fury that the massive intrinsic advantages held by the Remain camp still weren't enough to win it the referendum and their desperate flailing about for any other reason to explain it than the fact that a majority really wanted to leave the EU by turns amusing and pathetic.

Even when the reason is accurate......

This latest outrage comes not from remainers but from within the Brexit campaign. It appears to be at least in part the fall out from a gay relationship that went bad......

The whole issue of election funding/campaign rules/foreign interference/social media..... a lot of it passes me by. As much as you can control the hard money going into campaigns you cannot control the influence of external organisations or the soft money that campaigns on issues around the time of an election.

We are allowed to voice an opinion arent we? whether we means me and you or the CEO of Wetherspoons, or a former president of a foreign power, or even a social media site.

What does a free election mean if some are denied a voice? Its a tricky one....

[PSRB]

is the Leave campaign going about 600K over the spending limit?

Does anyone really think it made any difference or really give a toss?

Other than Ian Harvey, I mean.

Spending by leave campaigns: £13.5m
Spending by remain campaigns: £28m

Apparently.......

[Peter]

Spending by leave campaigns: £13.5m
Spending by remain campaigns: £28m

Apparently.......

Not according to the electoral commission which states that Leave just outspent remain. Funnily enough, the spendingcorrelates almost eaxactly with the outcome :)

[Burney]

Not according to the electoral commission which states that Leave just outspent remain. Funnily enough, the spendingcorrelates almost eaxactly with the outcome :)

Does that include the £9m spent by the government on those leaflets? I bet it doesn't.

Add to that the unquantifiable value of having the PM, the Governor of the BoE, the Chancellor, all major parties, Barack Obama and every other bugger queuing up to tell people to vote Remain and you have to conclude that spending is a very poor benchmark of how such campaigns work. Let's not pretend this was ever a level playing field. It was a rigged game that the mark somehow managed to win.

[World's End Stella]

Does that include the £9m spent by the government on those leaflets? I bet it doesn't.

Add to that the uncountable value of having the PM, the Governor of the BoE, the Chancellor, all major parties, Barack Obama and every other bugger queuing up to tell people to vote Remain and you have to conclude that spending is a very poor benchmark of how such campaigns work. Let's not pretend this was ever a level playing field. It was a rigged game that the mark somehow managed to win.

Mmmmm...not so sure. If you want to include Cameron, Obama, BoE etc then you also have to include the BNP, le Pen and others who stoked the anti-immigrant fire which undoubtedly contributed to the result without ever making it invalid. Everyone has a right to an opinion, to say that because more of the high profile people were Remain that that somehow made it a rigged game is an over-statement.

It was a level playing field, or as level as they can get, anyway.

[Peter]

Does that include the £9m spent by the government on those leaflets? I bet it doesn't.

Add to that the unquantifiable value of having the PM, the Governor of the BoE, the Chancellor, all major parties, Barack Obama and every other bugger queuing up to tell people to vote Remain and you have to conclude that spending is a very poor benchmark of how such campaigns work. Let's not pretend this was ever a level playing field. It was a rigged game that the mark somehow managed to win.

We are talking specifically about the quantifiable though. A quick flick through a section of the leave vote will tell you that those establishment figures queueing up to support remain were a significant factor for a lot of the swing vote that ended voting leave. So let us leave that alone for now....

I dont what that figure includes. Like you, I don't really care.

I just like winding up leave voters who are still convinced that they are somehow going to get stitched up :).

[Burney]

Mmmmm...not so sure. If you want to include Cameron, Obama, BoE etc then you also have to include the BNP, le Pen and others who stoked the anti-immigrant fire which undoubtedly contributed to the result without ever making it invalid. Everyone has a right to an opinion, to say that because more of the high profile people were Remain that that somehow made it a rigged game is an over-statement.

It was a level playing field, or as level as they can get, anyway.

Those things simply aren't equivalent. And the only thing that actually 'stoked the anti-immigrant fire' was the level of immigration that took place between 1997 and 2011 and the nature of many of those immigrants. Le Pen, BNP, etc are symptoms, not the disease.

[Peter]

Those things simply aren't equivalent. And the only thing that actually 'stoked the anti-immigrant fire' was the level of immigration that took place between 1997 and 2011 and the nature of many of those immigrants. Le Pen, BNP, etc are symptoms, not the disease.

The only thing? Come on..... there was that massive ****ing global economic crash thing what happened. Nothing like an economic collapse to make people look a little more keenly for scapegoats....

Then there was the whole radical islamic terrorism thing.

[Burney]

The only thing? Come on..... there was that massive ****ing global economic crash thing what happened. Nothing like an economic collapse to make people look a little more keenly for scapegoats....

Then there was the whole radical islamic terrorism thing.

Dislike of mass immigration massively pre-dated the financial crash, p. The BNP hit their zenith in the early 2000s.

[Peter]

Dislike of mass immigration massively pre-dated the financial crash, p. The BNP hit their zenith in the early 2000s.

Right, but the BNP are bull****. UKIP picked up pace after 2008.

Dislike of mass immigration pre-dates us all, b. It is nothing new and rarely sits atop the political agenda.

If you had held the referendum in 2007 do you really think Leave would have won?

[Burney]

Right, but the BNP are bull****. UKIP picked up pace after 2008.

Dislike of mass immigration pre-dates us all, b. It is nothing new and rarely sits atop the political agenda.

If you had held the referendum in 2007 do you really think Leave would have won?

Well, Tone was worried enough about the country's inherent Euroscepticism to shelve his commitment to a vote on the Lisbon Trophy (ie, he knew it would be rejected), so I think it's fair to say that there's absolutely no inherent correlation between the country's wider feelings about the EU and the 2008 financial crash.

[Peter]

Well, Tone was worried enough about the country's inherent Euroscepticism to shelve his commitment to a vote on the Lisbon Trophy (ie, he knew it would be rejected), so I think it's fair to say that there's absolutely no inherent correlation between the country's wider feelings about the EU and the 2008 financial crash.

Woah! Hold on. Those are two very different things. Voting for something the EU wants is very different from voting to leave it. That proves nothing.

Of course, we made a complete mess of the whole referendum thing. What we should have done is voted in our constituencies- that being the most democratic form of election, of course- and then returned OUR representative with our instruction. No argument there, is there- we the people, in our identified cohorts, have returned our instruction. One simple vote in the Commons, each MP bound by the clear view of his or her constituents.

Of course, itmay have skewed the result slightly but then if it is good enough for electing governments.......I fear the referendum has destroyed the notion of representation.... :)

[Burney]

Woah! Hold on. Those are two very different things. Voting for something the EU wants is very different from voting to leave it. That proves nothing.

Of course, we made a complete mess of the whole referendum thing. What we should have done is voted in our constituencies- that being the most democratic form of election, of course- and then returned OUR representative with our instruction. No argument there, is there- we the people, in our identified cohorts, have returned our instruction. One simple vote in the Commons, each MP bound by the clear view of his or her constituents.

Of course, itmay have skewed the result slightly but then if it is good enough for electing governments.......I fear the referendum has destroyed the notion of representation.... :)

You could hardly hold a referendum in 2016 on different terms to the one we had in 1975, p. That would be ridicules.

Ultimately, our membership of the European project lived by the sword of plebiscite, so if it was to die, it had to be by the same means. The precedent was set.

Oh, also, on the funding thingummy.

https://order-order.com/2018/03/26/remain-campaign-used-exactly-spending-tactics-vote-leave-far-worse/

[World's End Stella]

Dislike of mass immigration massively pre-dated the financial crash, p. The BNP hit their zenith in the early 2000s.

Firstly, BNP, UKIP, le Pen etc did not cause the issues with immigration but they certainly illuminated - and some would say grossly exaggerated - them. Hard to believe that didn't have an impact, especially on older voters who compromise the large majority of the supporters of those particular parties, in the same way that comments by Obama may have influenced younger voters.

Secondly, anti-immigration sentiment may have been around for many years however the people who held those views had limited opportunity to have them felt in any meaningful way. Voting for UKIP or le Pen didn't really get them anything. Brexit however allowed them to have a direct influence on immigration, massively so. And they took it.

[Peter]

You could hardly hold a referendum in 2016 on different terms to the one we had in 1975, p. That would be ridicules.

Ultimately, our membership of the European project lived by the sword of plebiscite, so if it was to die, it had to be by the same means. The precedent was set.

Oh, also, on the funding thingummy.

https://order-order.com/2018/03/26/remain-campaign-used-exactly-spending-tactics-vote-leave-far-worse/

And differently from every other referendum, obviously. I was joking :)

Yes, I have seen these figures elsewhere. Naturally I don't believe them, nor do I believe anything else I see or read about either campaign. Nor do I care.

My focus is where it has always been- to come up with even more wild and ludicrous reasons why we should have a second referendum mainly to wind up my dad. When he gets going on the EU it is painfully funny :)

[Burney]

Firstly, BNP, UKIP, le Pen etc did not cause the issues with immigration but they certainly illuminated - and some would say grossly exaggerated - them. Hard to believe that didn't have an impact, especially on older voters who compromise the large majority of the supporters of those particular parties, in the same way that comments by Obama may have influenced younger voters.

Secondly, anti-immigration sentiment may have been around for many years however the people who held those views had limited opportunity to have them felt in any meaningful way. Voting for UKIP or le Pen didn't really get them anything. Brexit however allowed them to have a direct influence on immigration, massively so. And they took it.

Hmmm. I'm no fan of them, but the BNP were highlighting the existence and prevalence of muslim gangs raping white girls in British cities when literally no-one else would touch the story and anyone who did raise it was called a racist. Hardly a wonder that they gained support in that environment. If you try to silence people, you can hardly wonder if they choose the party that offers them a voice.

The FN - while irrelevant to Brexit - are a direct response to France having the highest muslim population in Europe and understandably not being very happy about it.

And why wouldn't the populace react to immigration and multicultural policies that have a/ been imposed on them explicitly against their will and despite polling consistently showing that thy don't want them? and b/ have been an unmitigated disaster that have led to ghettoised populations being allowed to culturally, socially and politically dominate certain areas of British cities?

[World's End Stella]

Hmmm. I'm no fan of them, but the BNP were highlighting the existence and prevalence of muslim gangs raping white girls in British cities when literally no-one else would touch the story and anyone who did raise it was called a racist. Hardly a wonder that they gained support in that environment. If you try to silence people, you can hardly wonder if they choose the party that offers them a voice.

The FN - while irrelevant to Brexit - are a direct response to France having the highest muslim population in Europe and understandably not being very happy about it.

And why wouldn't the populace react to immigration and multicultural policies that have a/ been imposed on them explicitly against their will and despite polling consistently showing that thy don't want them? and b/ have been an unmitigated disaster that have led to ghettoised populations being allowed to culturally, socially and politically dominate certain areas of British cities?

They had every right to react to policies they disliked. But your original point was that this was a rigged game and I disagreed.

[Burney]

They had every right to react to policies they disliked. But your original point was that this was a rigged game and I disagreed.

In terms of how the thing was set up, it was a rigged game. :shrug:

There entire establishment was lined up on one side, while the other's big hitters were Boris, Gove and...errr...that's it. It was a remarkable victory of popular sentiment over vested interest. Not only did the sitting government and civil service basically campaign to remain (even trying to circumvent purdah rules to do so at one point), so did the Bank of England (which was supposed to remain neutral) and various other bodies. The Government paid for a leafletting campaign to support Remain and even extended voter registration for days in order to allow young voters who hadn't bothered their arses registering earlier to do so in the hope they'd vote Remain. The Remain campaign in the shape of the Government played an incredibly dirty game and used (or tried to use) every bit of advantage their position gave them. The idea that it was even close to a level playing field is absurd.

[Peter]

In terms of how the thing was set up, it was a rigged game. :shrug:

There entire establishment was lined up on one side, while the other's big hitters were Boris, Gove and...errr...that's it. It was a remarkable victory of popular sentiment over vested interest. Not only did the sitting government and civil service basically campaign to remain (even trying to circumvent purdah rules to do so at one point), so did the Bank of England (which was supposed to remain neutral) and various other bodies. The Government paid for a leafletting campaign to support Remain and even extended voter registration for days in order to allow young voters who hadn't bothered their arses registering earlier to do so in the hope they'd vote Remain. The Remain campaign in the shape of the Government played an incredibly dirty game and used (or tried to use) every bit of advantage their position gave them. The idea that it was even close to a level playing field is absurd.

It was most certainly rigged but in the wrong way, which ultimately worked in Leave's favour. The establishment camedown heavily on one side and condemned it to defeat.

We have no idea where a level field of play would have taken us so it is only fair that we find out by having another referendum :)