All this shít being lost about the BBC allegedly photoshopping Our Jeremy

[Sir C]

to make him look like he's wearing a Russian hat. THE CÚNT HAS CULTIVATED A BEARD AND WEARS HATS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE LENIN!

For fúck's sake.

[Billy Goat Sverige]

to make him look like he's wearing a Russian hat. THE CÚNT HAS CULTIVATED A BEARD AND WEARS HATS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE LENIN!

For fúck's sake.

There was a video on facebook of them discussing it on newsnight (Owen Jones brought it up). The comments underneath were full of people accusing the bbc of being right wing :clap: I nearly choked on my corn flakes.

[Sir C]

There was a video on facebook of them discussing it on newsnight (Owen Jones brought it up). The comments underneath were full of people accusing the bbc of being right wing :clap: I nearly choked on my corn flakes.

Leftism is a mental illness, b.

[Burney]

to make him look like he's wearing a Russian hat. THE CÚNT HAS CULTIVATED A BEARD AND WEARS HATS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE LENIN!

For fúck's sake.

My absolutely favourite thing about this utter, utter lunacy is that these fvcking dimbulbs don't seem to realise that not only are they making it clear they're insane, they are ensuring that this image they deem negative (which would only otherwise be seen by a few thousand thousand politics nerds on Newsnight) has now been hammered deep into the public consciousness.

Fvcking morons.

[Monty92]

My absolutely favourite thing about this utter, utter lunacy is that these fvcking dimbulbs don't seem to realise that not only are they making it clear they're insane, they are ensuring that this image they deem negative (which would only otherwise be seen by a few thousand thousand politics nerds on Newsnight) has now been hammered deep into the public consciousness.

Fvcking morons.

Yeah, but the problem is that I suspect the narrative being hammered deep into the public consciousness is the existing one that says Jezza is a harmless, kindly, allotment-tending, jam-making cuddly old man who's being demonised by the establishment who are either right wing (the press) or centre left (the BBC).

Otherwise how can you explain how he managed to ride out the incessant depictions of him throughout the GE campaign as a terrorist sympathising communist?

[PSRB]

Yeah, but the problem is that I suspect the narrative being hammered deep into the public consciousness is the existing one that says Jezza is a harmless, kindly, allotment-tending, jam-making cuddly old man who's being demonised by the establishment who are either right wing (the press) or centre left (the BBC).

Otherwise how can you explain how he managed to ride out the incessant depictions of him throughout the GE campaign as a terrorist sympathising communist?

The problem is the yoof of today have absolutely no comprehension of proper communism. They seem to just think that it's all about making everyone happy without any notion of the economic realities of it.

[Burney]

Yeah, but the problem is that I suspect the narrative being hammered deep into the public consciousness is the existing one that says Jezza is a harmless, kindly, allotment-tending, jam-making cuddly old man who's being demonised by the establishment who are either right wing (the press) or centre left (the BBC).

Otherwise how can you explain how he managed to ride out the incessant depictions of him throughout the GE campaign as a terrorist sympathising communist?

Because people don't pay that much attention to facts. Images, on the other hand, penetrate. Ensuring heavy rotation of an image of Corbyn as a commie really isn't very clever at all.

[Sir C]

Because people don't pay that much attention to facts. Images, on the other hand, penetrate. Ensuring heavy rotation of an image of Corbyn as a commie really isn't very clever at all.

I think PSRB makes a good point though; for a great many people, communism isn't automatically associated with evil any more.

The cultural Marxists won. :-(

Western civilisation was brought down by Ben Elton.

[Monty92]

Because people don't pay that much attention to facts. Images, on the other hand, penetrate. Ensuring heavy rotation of an image of Corbyn as a commie really isn't very clever at all.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

I'd like you to be right, but I'm pretty convinced the perception that Corbyn is some kind of dangerous ideologue is dead in the water. In fact the sad reality is that it simply never gained any traction and when pushed is now basically ignored, in whatever form it comes.

[Peter]

I think PSRB makes a good point though; for a great many people, communism isn't automatically associated with evil any more.

The cultural Marxists won. :-(

Western civilisation was brought down by Ben Elton.

:hehe::clap::hehe::

[Sir C]

:hehe::clap::hehe::

You won't be laughing when you're despatched to Our gulag for displaying reactionary and revanchist tendencies, p.

[Burney]

I think PSRB makes a good point though; for a great many people, communism isn't automatically associated with evil any more.

The cultural Marxists won. :-(

Western civilisation was brought down by Ben Elton.

I don't think communism ever was associated with evil in this country. Pre-war it was fashionable, during the war it was a gallant ally and post war it was widely espoused despite the fact we were engaged in a Cold War with it. Indeed, this country was far more left-wing for most of the time we were fighting the Cold War than it became when we no longer were.

[Peter]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

I'd like you to be right, but I'm pretty convinced the perception that Corbyn is some kind of dangerous ideologue is dead in the water. In fact the sad reality is that it simply never gained any traction and when pushed is now basically ignored, in whatever form it comes.

It was always the wrong way to go. The attack on him should always have been an innocent but incredibly naive man who has no conception of the broader world of politics. You then hint that he is backed by some rather more sinister forces (which is kind of true).

[Peter]

I don't think communism ever was associated with evil in this country. Pre-war it was fashionable, during the war it was a gallant ally and post war it was widely espoused despite the fact we were engaged in a Cold War with it. Indeed, this country was far more left-wing for most of the time we were fighting the Cold War than it became when we no longer were.

The debt of gratitude to the Red Army certainly cast a long shadow over our parents' generation. As an ideology, it defeated a far greater evil in fascism. And you are right, before the war the Labour Party was never in a huge hurry to distance itself from the Soviet Union.

Its an evil to the Yanks because it challenges their rather spurious notion of 'freedom'. I dont think Britain has ever really been quite sure what to make of Russia.

[Monty92]

It was always the wrong way to go. The attack on him should always have been an innocent but incredibly naive man who has no conception of the broader world of politics. You then hint that he is backed by some rather more sinister forces (which is kind of true).

Perhaps, although there is a credible counter-argument to what we're saying which is that if it wasn't for protest votes against Brexit, Corbyn would have been wiped out at the last GE and all of the media attacks against him would have been hailed as highly effective.

[Peter]

You won't be laughing when you're despatched to Our gulag for displaying reactionary and revanchist tendencies, p.

I am sure I will cope somehow.

[Burney]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

I'd like you to be right, but I'm pretty convinced the perception that Corbyn is some kind of dangerous ideologue is dead in the water. In fact the sad reality is that it simply never gained any traction and when pushed is now basically ignored, in whatever form it comes.

Oddly enough, I think it's gaining traction. Last week's performance was so egregious that it seems even to have leaked through to the polls.

Also, I know it's repeated all the time, but do always bear in mind that, for the polls to be where they are at the moment is utterly disastrous for Labour.

[Peter]

Perhaps, although there is a credible counter-argument to what we're saying which is that if it wasn't for the Brexit protest votes, Corbyn would have been wiped out at the last GE and all of the media attacks against him would have been hailed as highly effective.

A scruffy argument but certainly a factor. I am not even sure I would call it a Brexit protest vote. The aftermath of the referendum saw a considerable rebalancing in voting behaviour as UKIP voters did not in every case return to their fold. It remains to be seen whether that was a protest or a long term shift in behaviour.

As I have said before, the Conservatives are very worried. In three elections following a global collapse presided over by the Labour Party, and following 13 years out of power, they have managed one tiny majority- and even that depended on a promise of a referendum. Traditional patterns would have seen them walk the 2010 and 2015 elections. I sense something bigger than just Brexit.

[Monty92]

Oddly enough, I think it's gaining traction. Last week's performance was so egregious that it seems even to have leaked through to the polls.

Also, I know it's repeated all the time, but do always bear in mind that, for the polls to be where they are at the moment is utterly disastrous for Labour.

Yes, although an economic downturn after Brexit would surely - unquestionably - result in a Labour government in 2022, shirley?

[Burney]

Perhaps, although there is a credible counter-argument to what we're saying which is that if it wasn't for protest votes against Brexit, Corbyn would have been wiped out at the last GE and all of the media attacks against him would have been hailed as highly effective.

:nod: The protest vote aspect of 2017 - in addition to a truly woeful Tory non-campaign - is widely underestimated.

For many, Brexit was the tories' 'fault' and those people - rather stupidly - saw voting for a Eurosceptic Labour leadership as the best form of punishing them for it. I suspect the folly of this has now started to dawn on many and it won't happen again.

[Monty92]

A scruffy argument but certainly a factor. I am not even sure I would call it a Brexit protest vote. The aftermath of the referendum saw a considerable rebalancing in voting behaviour as UKIP voters did not in every case return to their fold. It remains to be seen whether that was a protest or a long term shift in behaviour.

As I have said before, the Conservatives are very worried. In three elections following a global collapse presided over by the Labour Party, and following 13 years out of power, they have managed one tiny majority- and even that depended on a promise of a referendum. Traditional patterns would have seen them walk the 2010 and 2015 elections. I sense something bigger than just Brexit.

Sure, UKIP voters returning to Labour after they'd made a manifesto commitment to a meaningful Brexit was certainly a factor too.

Of course there's plenty more than Brexit at play. The disaster of the housing market and a sense that austerity (while once a necessity) has gone on for too long, for kick off.

[Burney]

Yes, although an economic downturn after Brexit would surely - unquestionably - result in a Labour government in 2022, shirley?

Nope. People don't vote Labour to get out of economic downturns, m. It would be like trying to put out a fire with gallon of four-star.

[Monty92]

Nope. People don't vote Labour to get out of economic downturns, m. It would be like trying to put out a fire with gallon of four-star.

But as you yourself have just acknowledged, not everyone votes for who they want to actually win. My assumption is that enough people would "punish" the Tories in the event of a downturn to make Labour the largest party. Even if this manifested merely in a low turn-out for the Tories it could push Labour over the line.

[Burney]

A scruffy argument but certainly a factor. I am not even sure I would call it a Brexit protest vote. The aftermath of the referendum saw a considerable rebalancing in voting behaviour as UKIP voters did not in every case return to their fold. It remains to be seen whether that was a protest or a long term shift in behaviour.

As I have said before, the Conservatives are very worried. In three elections following a global collapse presided over by the Labour Party, and following 13 years out of power, they have managed one tiny majority- and even that depended on a promise of a referendum. Traditional patterns would have seen them walk the 2010 and 2015 elections. I sense something bigger than just Brexit.

This wildly underestimates the impact of Blair Government's quite extraordinary gerrymandering of the electoral boundaries - which has meant that tory seats are invariably larger and that the tories must win far more votes to gain a seat than Labour.

[Peter]

Sure, UKIP voters returning to Labour after they'd made a manifesto commitment to a meaningful Brexit was certainly a factor too.

Of course there's plenty more than Brexit at play. The disaster of the housing market and a sense that austerity (while once a necessity) has gone on for too long, for kick off.

Which kind of suggests that Cameron's pledge was the difference between the two parties in 2015. That is hugely worrying for Conservative HQ.

The housing market thing is hilariously tragic. THe notion that we are short of millions of houses is pretty laughable if only for the very obvious fact that if we were, millions of people would be homeless.

THe shortage is to do with the millions of properties in the hands of private landlords and the fact that the way the market works means that if you dont own you are on the wrong side of it. A fifth of houses are owned by private landlords, including 40% of houses sold under 'right to buy'.

Building new houses wont solve this. Within a few years a huge chunk of those new houses will be sat in the hands of the same landlords.

If you want to tackle the housing shortage, tackle that.

[Burney]

But as you yourself have just acknowledged, not everyone votes for who they want to actually win. My assumption is that enough people would "punish" the Tories in the event of a downturn to make Labour the largest party. Even if this manifested merely in a low turn-out for the Tories it could push Labour over the line.

I don't really buy this, I'm afraid. It's based on far too many imaginative leaps. How big is the downturn (if it even happens)? I've no idea what state the Labour Party will be in by 2022, for instance. Also, I doubt the Brexit wound will be anywhere near as raw in 2022 as it was in 2017.

[Peter]

This wildly underestimates the impact of Blair Government's quite extraordinary gerrymandering of the electoral boundaries - which has meant that tory seats are invariably larger and that the tories must win far more votes to gain a seat than Labour.

Nonsense. THis has always been a factor, largely due to Labour's popularity in smaller, inner city constituencies. THis did not start with Blair.

What I did wildly underestimate is the huge unpopularity of Blair, his war and his chums in the party, which is yet another reason why the 2010 result was such a massive disappointment for the Conservatives.

I havent even mentioned the collapse of the Lib Dems yet. Another factor in voter realignment. THe Lib Dems had held my seat since 1997, quite comfortably. They lost it in 2015 and Labour, a distant third with a minute proportion of the vote now sit second, missing the seat in the last election by just 4000 or so.

[Sir C]

But as you yourself have just acknowledged, not everyone votes for who they want to actually win. My assumption is that enough people would "punish" the Tories in the event of a downturn to make Labour the largest party. Even if this manifested merely in a low turn-out for the Tories it could push Labour over the line.

But with Momentum gaining a firmer and firmer grip on the party's throat, surely a point will come where 'moderate' Labour MPs will no longer be prepared to stand for the anti-semitism, the lunatic economic 'policies' and the extreme fringe identity politics?

A new, centrist, pro-EU party, led by Soubry, Ummuna and some SDP moron, would surely split the Labour vote enough to see it consigned to the wilderness? :please:

[Monty92]

But with Momentum gaining a firmer and firmer grip on the party's throat, surely a point will come where 'moderate' Labour MPs will no longer be prepared to stand for the anti-semitism, the lunatic economic 'policies' and the extreme fringe identity politics?

A new, centrist, pro-EU party, led by Soubry, Ummuna and some SDP moron, would surely split the Labour vote enough to see it consigned to the wilderness? :please:

I thought this was an excellent article on Corbynism. Yes, in the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/14/corbynite-tribes-labour-leader-left

[Burney]

But with Momentum gaining a firmer and firmer grip on the party's throat, surely a point will come where 'moderate' Labour MPs will no longer be prepared to stand for the anti-semitism, the lunatic economic 'policies' and the extreme fringe identity politics?

A new, centrist, pro-EU party, led by Soubry, Ummuna and some SDP moron, would surely split the Labour vote enough to see it consigned to the wilderness? :please:

Never mind the centrists. You're already seeing McDonnell distancing himself from Corbyn over Russia. You have Momentum and Unite at each other's throats. One wonders whether the moderates are sitting back and hoping for it to implode.

[Peter]

But with Momentum gaining a firmer and firmer grip on the party's throat, surely a point will come where 'moderate' Labour MPs will no longer be prepared to stand for the anti-semitism, the lunatic economic 'policies' and the extreme fringe identity politics?

A new, centrist, pro-EU party, led by Soubry, Ummuna and some SDP moron, would surely split the Labour vote enough to see it consigned to the wilderness? :please:

Ah! A new SDP. After a few embarrassing elections they could merge with the dying embers of the Lib Dems. Its the 80s again!