In response to #Metoo, this year's Geneva Motor Show has replaced its "booth babes"

[Monty92]

888

889

:-|

[Ash]

2,1.

Do you believe in the supposed negative meaning of words like 'objectification' and 'titillation' that you used in the F1 grid girl discussion? Like many politically-loaded words, they are device to define the opposing position as reprehensible and unnacceptable imo.

Certainly there's an irony over the outrage of the showing of a bit of leg in a sport where, for the 'titillation' of millions, men (and women) risk death by driving a missile around an island, and while many of them are highly paid, there are dozens of marshals around the track who risk their lives for the sport but who are not paid a penny. As these are mainly fat ugly middle-aged blokes no-one cares about them.

[Burney]

2,1.

Do you believe in the supposed negative meaning of words like 'objectification' and 'titillation' that you used in the F1 grid girl discussion? Like many politically-loaded words, they are device to define the opposing position as reprehensible and unnacceptable imo.

Certainly there's an irony over the outrage of the showing of a bit of leg in a sport where, for the 'titillation' of millions, men (and women) risk death by driving a missile around an island, and while many of them are highly paid, there are dozens of marshals around the track who risk their lives for the sport but who are not paid a penny. As these are mainly fat ugly middle-aged blokes no-one cares about them.

Because sex is bad, a. The sexual attraction of men to young, nubile women is A BAD THING and must be stopped.

[7sisters]

2,1.

Do you believe in the supposed negative meaning of words like 'objectification' and 'titillation' that you used in the F1 grid girl discussion? Like many politically-loaded words, they are device to define the opposing position as reprehensible and unnacceptable imo.

Certainly there's an irony over the outrage of the showing of a bit of leg in a sport where, for the 'titillation' of millions, men (and women) risk death by driving a missile around an island, and while many of them are highly paid, there are dozens of marshals around the track who risk their lives for the sport but who are not paid a penny. As these are mainly fat ugly middle-aged blokes no-one cares about them.

Aren't these the same sort of blokes who are abjectly mourning the loss of Maplins. Nerdy component geek types. Or do I have that wrong ?

[Burney]

888

889

:-|

I was thinking the other day how much it would confuse 'progressives' if muslim women started declaring themselves male, wearing trousers and t-shirts, refusing to wear the hijab and doing pretty much what they like. The muslim reaction to such behaviours would certainly give the Labour Party something to consider

[Ash]

Aren't these the same sort of blokes who are abjectly mourning the loss of Maplins. Nerdy component geek types. Or do I have that wrong ?

Yep, they are the same. There's nothing wrong with that though. Some of my best friends are nerdy component geeks.

[SWv2]

888

889

:-|

Still chicks all the same.

Not sure how this can be held up as a massive step forward, it is still purely a chick for the sake of it.

[PSRB]

Still chicks all the same.

Not sure how this can be held up as a massive step forward, it is still purely a chick for the sake of it.

At least Moto GP is keeping grid girls, wd 2 wheel-types

[redgunamo]

Still chicks all the same.

Not sure how this can be held up as a massive step forward, it is still purely a chick for the sake of it.

There's the rub, I think; dollies are supposed to be important, not merely there "for the sake of it."

[SWv2]

Yep, they are the same. There's nothing wrong with that though. Some of my best friends are nerdy component geeks.

It's okay A. Just be honest.

:-(

[Ash]

I was thinking the other day how much it would confuse 'progressives' if muslim women started declaring themselves male, wearing trousers and t-shirts, refusing to wear the hijab and doing pretty much what they like. The muslim reaction to such behaviours would certainly give the Labour Party something to consider

Yeah, right. See also: hell freezing over. Though the other day I saw a woman in a hijab clutching a wad of Socialist Worker papers. At first I thought it was odd because it is absolutely not possible to be a communist and a devout muslim, but then I thought that this is the SWP so anything is possible. Even in my days, long ago, of being curious about radical socialism I thought the SWP were full of shít.

[Monty92]

Still chicks all the same.

Not sure how this can be held up as a massive step forward, it is still purely a chick for the sake of it.

If think these chicks are supposed to actually know something about the cars they're standing next to.

[Ash]

It's okay A. Just be honest.

:-(

:nono: I've never been into hardware. Though my brother-in-law is and used to marshall at Mondello Park. Excellent fellow though. Likes a pint.

[Monty92]

Aren't these the same sort of blokes who are abjectly mourning the loss of Maplins. Nerdy component geek types. Or do I have that wrong ?

They are certainly politically loaded words but that doesn't mean they can't ever be used without a political agenda.

And what you call irony, others may call whataboutery.

[redgunamo]

If think these chicks are supposed to actually know something about the cars they're standing next to.

Maybe, but they're still chicks :shrug:

[Monty92]

Maybe, but they're still chicks :shrug:

I think there are blokes next to cars too.

[SWv2]

Maybe, but they're still chicks :shrug:

Quite.

Get a bloke to do it. Essentially it is still a chick for the same reasons as the previous scantily clad chick.

The sort of fúcking pervert that would attend a motor show in the first place probably gets more hot under the collar about the bint dressed up as Stig from Top Gear as he does a bint with her bits on show.

[redgunamo]

I think there are blokes next to cars too.

Terrific!

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/jamesbond/images/0/0e/Sean_Connery_with_1964_Aston_Martin_DB5.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110305161235

It's basically the Great Women's Football Fallacy all over again.

[Burney]

Yeah, right. See also: hell freezing over. Though the other day I saw a woman in a hijab clutching a wad of Socialist Worker papers. At first I thought it was odd because it is absolutely not possible to be a communist and a devout muslim, but then I thought that this is the SWP so anything is possible. Even in my days, long ago, of being curious about radical socialism I thought the SWP were full of shít.

It's all allies of convenience, I'm afraid. Islamists know very well that the left will bend over backwards to accommodate them as long as they deliver votes in heavily muslim communities. The left are their useful idiots.

[Ash]

They are certainly politically loaded words but that doesn't mean they can't ever be used without a political agenda.

And what you call irony, others may call whataboutery.

First, you responded to the wrong post.

Second, I have long opposed the use of the word 'whataboutery', by any side, as a way to shut down arguments that take an opposing view. It's just another magic word, like 'objectification' that is intended to shut people up.

Third, despite previous indocrination by puritanical feminism, I now simply reject its prudish hatred of sex, together with all of the bull**** vocabulary which is used to bolster that position. You should too, my friend. :driving:

[redgunamo]

First, you responded to the wrong post.

Second, I have long opposed the use of the word 'whataboutery', by any side, as a way to shut down arguments that take an opposing view. It's just another magic word, like 'objectification' that is intended to shut people up.

Third, despite previous indocrination by puritanical feminism, I now simply reject its prudish hatred of sex, together with all of the bull**** vocabulary which is used to bolster that position. You should too, my friend. :driving:

I don't think they hate sex, just sex without consequences.

Which is ironic really.

Or whataboutery, I suppose :-\

[Monty92]

First, you responded to the wrong post.

Second, I have long opposed the use of the word 'whataboutery', by any side, as a way to shut down arguments that take an opposing view. It's just another magic word, like 'objectification' that is intended to shut people up.

Third, despite previous indocrination by puritanical feminism, I now simply reject its prudish hatred of sex, together with all of the bull**** vocabulary which is used to bolster that position. You should too, my friend. :driving:

Hmmm. Well some may argue that by delegitimising my use of words such as 'whataboutery' and 'titillation' by associating them with those who use them for nefarious, politically driven purposes, you are yourself shutting down debate and doing exactly the same thing you're criticising.

Unless you think of me merely as a useful idiot, which would seem a leeeetle beet harsh.

[Ash]

Hmmm. Well some may argue that by delegitimising my use of words such as 'whataboutery' and 'titillation' by associating them with those who use them for nefarious, politically driven purposes, you are yourself shutting down debate and doing exactly the same thing you're criticising.

Unless you think of me merely as a useful idiot, which would seem a leeeetle beet harsh.

I'm not delegitimising your words, dear, just disarming them. :-)

Look, we both know what this is really all about so lets say it, and let's use Mr SW's vulgar sexist vocabulary while we're at it. Some chicks, mostly upper middle-class, get sniffy about scantily-clad birds attracting the attention of their menfolk, and rather than having to admit that they're jealous, they have to make it out to be some kind of crime that men like to look at such a pleasing sight, because of biology.

Upwardly-mobile young gentlemen like yourself, desperate to gain acceptance and approval among his newly-acquired middle-class social acquaintances, eagerly virtue-signals the approved feminist tropes to cement his hard-earned new status, initially grasped by shacking up with a posh bint.

:judge:

[redgunamo]

I'm not delegitimising your words, dear, just disarming them. :-)

Look, we both know what this is really all about so lets say it, and let's use Mr SW's vulgar sexist vocabulary while we're at it. Some chicks, mostly upper middle-class, get sniffy about scantily-clad birds attracting the attention of their menfolk, and rather than having to admit that they're jealous, they have to make it out to be some kind of crime that men like to look at such a pleasing sight, because of biology.

Upwardly-mobile young gentlemen like yourself, desperate to gain acceptance and approval among his newly-acquired middle-class social acquaintances, eagerly virtue-signals the approved feminist tropes to cement his hard-earned new status, initially grasped by shacking up with a posh bint.

:judge:

No, M is excused. He's paying for his sexist bigotry with his life.

Everything else is just banter.

[Peter]

I'm not delegitimising your words, dear, just disarming them. :-)

Look, we both know what this is really all about so lets say it, and let's use Mr SW's vulgar sexist vocabulary while we're at it. Some chicks, mostly upper middle-class, get sniffy about scantily-clad birds attracting the attention of their menfolk, and rather than having to admit that they're jealous, they have to make it out to be some kind of crime that men like to look at such a pleasing sight, because of biology.

Upwardly-mobile young gentlemen like yourself, desperate to gain acceptance and approval among his newly-acquired middle-class social acquaintances, eagerly virtue-signals the approved feminist tropes to cement his hard-earned new status, initially grasped by shacking up with a posh bint.

:judge:

You forgot to mention that the birds who get the hump are usually fat and ugly. This is crucial.

[SWv2]

I'm not delegitimising your words, dear, just disarming them. :-)

Look, we both know what this is really all about so lets say it, and let's use Mr SW's vulgar sexist vocabulary while we're at it. Some chicks, mostly upper middle-class, get sniffy about scantily-clad birds attracting the attention of their menfolk, and rather than having to admit that they're jealous, they have to make it out to be some kind of crime that men like to look at such a pleasing sight, because of biology.

Upwardly-mobile young gentlemen like yourself, desperate to gain acceptance and approval among his newly-acquired middle-class social acquaintances, eagerly virtue-signals the approved feminist tropes to cement his hard-earned new status, initially grasped by shacking up with a posh bint.

:judge:

I really must object in the strongest way possible here.

[Monty92]

I'm not delegitimising your words, dear, just disarming them. :-)

Look, we both know what this is really all about so lets say it, and let's use Mr SW's vulgar sexist vocabulary while we're at it. Some chicks, mostly upper middle-class, get sniffy about scantily-clad birds attracting the attention of their menfolk, and rather than having to admit that they're jealous, they have to make it out to be some kind of crime that men like to look at such a pleasing sight, because of biology.

Upwardly-mobile young gentlemen like yourself, desperate to gain acceptance and approval among his newly-acquired middle-class social acquaintances, eagerly virtue-signals the approved feminist tropes to cement his hard-earned new status, initially grasped by shacking up with a posh bint.

:judge:

Hmmm. Hmmmmmm.

I don't really recognise this jealousy you describe among chicks. I actually think most women (of every class) like the fact that blokes love perving. It gives them something to feel superior to us about.

I actually think this whole movement is being driven by the economics of the media. I don't know how you'd do it, but I reckon if you could quantify the market value of the women's movement in terms of how much money it generates, it would be a serious eye-opener.

In other words, it's the equality industrial complex, stoopid.

As for your characterisation of me, if you'd had any insight into my private sphere in recently years you'd be aware how many middle-class acquaintances I've upset and alienated by talking about this stuff. Certainly, the idea of me ever virtue signally in front of my peers would elicit much laughter from my "posh bint" (who by he way grew up in a **** West Midlands town and spent her early twenties working as a cleaner and bartender).

So, no.

[Ash]

Hmmm. Hmmmmmm.

I don't really recognise this jealousy you describe among chicks. I actually think most women (of every class) like the fact that blokes love perving. It gives them something to feel superior to us about.

I actually think this whole movement is being driven by the economics of the media. I don't know how you'd do it, but I reckon if you could quantify the market value of the women's movement in terms of how much money it generates, it would be a serious eye-opener.

In other words, it's the equality industrial complex, stoopid.

As for your characterisation of me, if you'd had any insight into my private sphere in recently years you'd be aware how many middle-class acquaintances I've upset and alienated by talking about this stuff. Certainly, the idea of me ever virtue signally in front of my peers would elicit much laughter from my "posh bint" (who by he way grew up in a **** West Midlands town and spent her early twenties working as a cleaner and bartender).

So, no.

Fair enough about your social scene, I was just bantering you off. Though remember, we did all read her blog, and perhaps some tweets as well and she really didn't come over like a cleaner from Dudley.

You make a good point about the identity-politics industry. I don't know if the politics is actually commercially driven though, rather than ideologically, but worth thinking about. It makes a change from some of the more eccentric right-wing theories about George Soros.

I still think there's a fair chance that it's all about fashion though. 'Society' has always held certain principles as inviolable, with those principles changing from era to era. Prudery is in. As is the idea (despite all the 'inspirational journey' crap) that women are delicate flowers in need of protection. It's literally like the 19th century all over again, Clive.

[Monty92]

Fair enough about your social scene, I was just bantering you off. Though remember, we did all read her blog, and perhaps some tweets as well and she really didn't come over like a cleaner from Dudley.

You make a good point about the identity-politics industry. I don't know if the politics is actually commercially driven though, rather than ideologically, but worth thinking about. It makes a change from some of the more eccentric right-wing theories about George Soros.

I still think there's a fair chance that it's all about fashion though. 'Society' has always held certain principles as inviolable, with those principles changing from era to era. Prudery is in. As is the idea (despite all the 'inspirational journey' crap) that women are delicate flowers in need of protection. It's literally like the 19th century all over again, Clive.

So the chick learnt some big words and made something of herself. It's hardly an apocryphal journey :shrug:

It's the culture that's commercially driven, not the politics. The politics (in terms of laws and public policy) exists downstream from culture.

[Ash]

It's the culture that's commercially driven, not the politics. The politics (in terms of laws and public policy) exists downstream from culture.

Which just makes the questions to be who/what sets the agenda that drives the culture? Commerce, fashion, or powerful interest groups? You think commerce, I'm not so sure because academia has been very instrumental.

Anyway. Do you actually believe it or not? Their position which you have been sort-of defending, at least with some of their vocabulary.

[Monty92]

Which just makes the questions to be who/what sets the agenda that drives the culture? Commerce, fashion, or powerful interest groups? You think commerce, I'm not so sure because academia has been very instrumental.

Anyway. Do you actually believe it or not? Their position which you have been sort-of defending, at least with some of their vocabulary.

Academia has been powerful in pushing post-modernist ideas, some of which complement the current women's movement, but equally some of which also come into direct conflict with it.

Do I believe what? All I really believe that puts me on "their" side is that a lot of men should treat women better than they do. Of course, a lot of women should also treat men better than they do, and a lot of women should treat other women better than they do.

But then we are into whataboutery territory, at which point you insist on silencing me :-(

[Burney]

Which just makes the questions to be who/what sets the agenda that drives the culture? Commerce, fashion, or powerful interest groups? You think commerce, I'm not so sure because academia has been very instrumental.

Anyway. Do you actually believe it or not? Their position which you have been sort-of defending, at least with some of their vocabulary.

The wholesale infiltration of education and academia by the identity politics-driven left have been hugely successful. You now have a generation or two of young adults in the world who are genuinely shocked and appalled that people exist who are prepared to even question certain orthodoxies. One oughtn't be surprised by this. They have been thoroughly brainwashed with this crap since age 5, with the BBC, etc helping to hammer home the 'right' messages on gender, race, social justice and the environment. The effect of this has been that, the 'better' educated these people are, the less prone they are to original or independent thought on these issues. This is why hope now lies with the proles.

[Peter]

The wholesale infiltration of education and academia by the identity politics-driven left have been hugely successful. You now have a generation or two of young adults in the world who are genuinely shocked and appalled that people exist who are prepared to even question certain orthodoxies. One oughtn't be surprised by this. They have been thoroughly brainwashed with this crap since age 5, with the BBC, etc helping to hammer home the 'right' messages on gender, race, social justice and the environment. The effect of this has been that, the 'better' educated these people are, the less prone they are to original or independent thought on these issues. This is why hope now lies with the proles.

And this presumably started just after you were very well educated, making you immune?

[Monty92]

I like your final point, but I can’t help recalling how you used to speak about the proles pre-brexit.

You seemed quite enamoured of the fact that democracy was a sham designed to make thick people feel like their opinions mattered while actually ignoring them.

That’s what you used to say, anyway.



The wholesale infiltration of education and academia by the identity politics-driven left have been hugely successful. You now have a generation or two of young adults in the world who are genuinely shocked and appalled that people exist who are prepared to even question certain orthodoxies. One oughtn't be surprised by this. They have been thoroughly brainwashed with this crap since age 5, with the BBC, etc helping to hammer home the 'right' messages on gender, race, social justice and the environment. The effect of this has been that, the 'better' educated these people are, the less prone they are to original or independent thought on these issues. This is why hope now lies with the proles.

[Burney]

Academia has been powerful in pushing post-modernist ideas, some of which complement the current women's movement, but equally some of which also come into direct conflict with it.

Do I believe what? All I really believe that puts me on "their" side is that a lot of men should treat women better than they do. Of course, a lot of women should also treat men better than they do, and a lot of women should treat other women better than they do.

But then we are into whataboutery territory, at which point you insist on silencing me :-(

Post-modernism is simply a catch-all term for the widespread inculcation of moral and qualitative relativism as credos. This has served to destroy several generations' capacity for critical or cultural appraisal, meaning they'll accept virtually anything because they lack the certitude to denounce it.

[Peter]

Academia has been powerful in pushing post-modernist ideas, some of which complement the current women's movement, but equally some of which also come into direct conflict with it.

Do I believe what? All I really believe that puts me on "their" side is that a lot of men should treat women better than they do. Of course, a lot of women should also treat men better than they do, and a lot of women should treat other women better than they do.

But then we are into whataboutery territory, at which point you insist on silencing me :-(

Only one part of academia, and even then not wholesale. People studying engineering, accounting, medicine, optometry, geology, physics, biomedical science, law, architecture, computing, graphic design, podiatry, audiology- they tend to be fairly immune from the worst excesses of what B refers to as the identity politics-driven left.

What I see every day is a generation of students desperate to find something to be angry about, stripped of their birthright of outrage and feeling particularly inferior to their predecessors who fought civil rights, clause 28, burned their bras and banned the bomb.

Its a natural drive for the young generation to want to fight for change. Academia, in the social sciences and humanities, does a lot of pandering to this and of course modern academics feel the constant need to challenge something.

I dont really find any of this sinister. Just pathetic. It is potentially damaging though....

[Burney]

I like your final point, but I can’t help recalling how you used to speak about the proles pre-brexit.

You seemed quite enamoured of the fact that democracy was a sham designed to make thick people feel like their opinions mattered while actually ignoring them.

That’s what you used to say, anyway.

I agree. And I regret my glibness. What I had perhaps underestimated until Brexit was the extent of the brainwashing. I really didn't grasp how intellectually unfit so much of the more educated classes had been allowed to become. I mean we now have younger generations who regard living under democratic government as much less important than do their parents and grandparents. I find that genuinely shocking. How in God's name can that have been allowed to happen?

[Peter]

I agree. And I regret my glibness. What I had perhaps underestimated until Brexit was the extent of the brainwashing. I really didn't grasp how intellectually unfit so much of the more educated classes had been allowed to become. I mean we now have younger generations who regard living under democratic government as much less important than do their parents and grandparents. I find that genuinely shocking. How in God's name can that have been allowed to happen?

Is that how you interpret the Brexit vote? That young people dont care about democracy as much as their parents?

[Burney]

Only one part of academia, and even then not wholesale. People studying engineering, accounting, medicine, optometry, geology, physics, biomedical science, law, architecture, computing, graphic design, podiatry, audiology- they tend to be fairly immune from the worst excesses of what B refers to as the identity politics-driven left.

What I see every day is a generation of students desperate to find something to be angry about, stripped of their birthright of outrage and feeling particularly inferior to their predecessors who fought civil rights, clause 28, burned their bras and banned the bomb.

Its a natural drive for the young generation to want to fight for change. Academia, in the social sciences and humanities, does a lot of pandering to this and of course modern academics feel the constant need to challenge something.

I dont really find any of this sinister. Just pathetic. It is potentially damaging though....

But they aren't fighting for change or freedom. They're fighting for rigid intellectual orthodoxy and the silencing of those who disagree.

And the hard sciences are not immune to this stuff. We're already seeing scientific studies of certain hot potatoes (transgenderism and climate science for instance) being denied funding for fear they'll come to the 'wrong' conclusions. A couple of years back, we saw a man who had been intimately involved in the Rosetta space programme forced to make a grovelling, tearful apology on television because he had dared to wear a shirt with bare ladies on it. Nobody is safe from this stuff.

[redgunamo]

It is potentially damaging though....

No, everyone eventually grows up. Or dies childless, so no real harm done.

[Burney]

Is that how you interpret the Brexit vote? That young people dont care about democracy as much as their parents?

I think it's a factor, certainly, but that wasn't my point. My point was that to have arrived at a situation where kids are allowed to grow up without a single fvcking clue about how lucky they are or why is terrifying.

[Monty92]

I think it's a factor, certainly, but that wasn't my point. My point was that to have arrived at a situation where kids are allowed to grow up without a single fvcking clue about how lucky they are or why is terrifying.

But the left would throw that exact same charge back at us. For example, in relation to gender equality, they'd say that we've grown complacent about the progress that's been made and that slipping back into the bad old days is a persistent threat, even if it doesn't feel like it.

[Peter]

I think it's a factor, certainly, but that wasn't my point. My point was that to have arrived at a situation where kids are allowed to grow up without a single fvcking clue about how lucky they are or why is terrifying.


It really doesnt sound remotely terrifying. Just the standard cry of each generation about the next.

[redgunamo]

It really doesnt sound remotely terrifying. Just the standard cry of each generation about the next.

Perhaps the terrifying bit is that there isn't or will be no next generation this time? That the next generation, such as it is, will in fact be all undesirable immigrant, redgunamo-types? Whither everyone's traditional way of life? Old maids bicycling to communion through the morning mists and a' that :-(

[Burney]

But the left would throw that exact same charge back at us. For example, in relation to gender equality, they'd say that we've grown complacent about the progress that's been made and that slipping back into the bad old days is a persistent threat, even if it doesn't feel like it.

But that simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The achievements of wimmin are being repeatedly shoved down our throats at every level of education, academia and media.
What the left is doing is simply applying the Marxist/Trotskyist principle of permanent revolution to the sphere of identity politics. The only way to maintain momentum and prevent backsliding is to be constantly demanding change - even where none is needed.

Meanwhile, of course, all this noise serves to mask the fact that the greatest actual threats to women's rights come from the left's advocacy of Islam and transgenderism.

[Burney]

It really doesnt sound remotely terrifying. Just the standard cry of each generation about the next.

No. It's different because it's arse about face. The older generation is supposed to be the po-faced, narrow-minded, illiberal one. That's not the case anymore. Our younger generation seem to want less freedom, not more.

[redgunamo]

No. It's different because it's arse about face. The older generation is supposed to be the po-faced, narrow-minded, illiberal one. That's not the case anymore. Our younger generation seem to want less freedom, not more.

As P suggests, all any younger generation seems to want is the freedom to escape the pernicious influence of their parents. Nobody ever said anything about parents yearning to escape the pernicious influence of their children :hehe:

[Peter]

No. It's different because it's arse about face. The older generation is supposed to be the po-faced, narrow-minded, illiberal one. That's not the case anymore. Our younger generation seem to want less freedom, not more.

Right, but that is based on your definition of the horribly *******ised word 'freedom'. The younger generation, on campuses, want freedom from oppression, and from oppressive views. THey think we can only be free when we all agre that certain things (gays, women, gender, ethnicity, rape etc) have absolute truths and can only be discussed within those absolutes. THe freedom to be who you are (as long as it isnt a straight, white, english male). They are willing to accept a curtailment of your generation's old fashioned view of freedom of speech/thought/expression in order to create this 'free from judgement' utopia.

They are not campaigning to be less free. Its a new birth of freedom.

Its just the sort of bull**** people come out with when they are young. I used to make up all sorts of ****e about what I wanted when really it was just beer, fags, speed and acid.

[Burney]

Right, but that is based on your definition of the horribly *******ised word 'freedom'. The younger generation, on campuses, want freedom from oppression, and from oppressive views. THey think we can only be free when we all agre that certain things (gays, women, gender, ethnicity, rape etc) have absolute truths and can only be discussed within those absolutes. THe freedom to be who you are (as long as it isnt a straight, white, english male). They are willing to accept a curtailment of your generation's old fashioned view of freedom of speech/thought/expression in order to create this 'free from judgement' utopia.

They are not campaigning to be less free. Its a new birth of freedom.

Its just the sort of bull**** people come out with when they are young. I used to make up all sorts of ****e about what I wanted when really it was just beer, fags, speed and acid.

Yes, but in those days we had adults who were prepared to tell us to shut up because we were clueless little cvnts. These days, the idiots are pandered to and encouraged in these ridicules notions by adults in positions of authority who really ought to know better.

[Peter]

Yes, but in those days we had adults who were prepared to tell us to shut up because we were clueless little cvnts. These days, the idiots are pandered to and encouraged in these ridicules notions by adults in positions of authority who really ought to know better.

Yes, I know. And it is your job to be outraged by it.

Face it, b....you are as much a cliche as the gender free students standing for election as President of the SU on a platform of 'ridding the world of gender bias and hatred forever!'........

You shouldn't worry for the future of humanity because it isn't your concern and there is **** all you can do about it anyway. Let the young people have their day.

I blame rock n roll for inventing youth culture. THat is where the world went to ****.

[Peter]

Perhaps the terrifying bit is that there isn't or will be no next generation this time? That the next generation, such as it is, will in fact be all undesirable immigrant, redgunamo-types? Whither everyone's traditional way of life? Old maids bicycling to communion through the morning mists and a' that :-(

This is what The Times THey Are A-Changing is all about. God, its like some of you werent even listening.....

Your old road is rapidly ageing, an all that....

Always listen to Bob... he knew his onions.

[Ash]

Perhaps the terrifying bit is that there isn't or will be no next generation this time? That the next generation, such as it is, will in fact be all undesirable immigrant, redgunamo-types? Whither everyone's traditional way of life? Old maids bicycling to communion through the morning mists and a' that :-(

I'm drinking a warm beer right now, as it goes. #Major

Anyway, redgunamo types aren't undesirable.

[Burney]

Yes, I know. And it is your job to be outraged by it.

Face it, b....you are as much a cliche as the gender free students standing for election as President of the SU on a platform of 'ridding the world of gender bias and hatred forever!'........

You shouldn't worry for the future of humanity because it isn't your concern and there is **** all you can do about it anyway. Let the young people have their day.

I blame rock n roll for inventing youth culture. THat is where the world went to ****.

There is some truth in that. Most of these little sh1tes would have been immensely improved by leaving school and 14 and being sent to a war.

[Ash]

All I really believe that puts me on "their" side is that a lot of men should treat women better than they do. Of course, a lot of women should also treat men better than they do, and a lot of women should treat other women better than they do.


I believe all that too, but I don't think a bit of gratuitious glamour hurts at all.

And I'm not silencing you, we are engaging in a healthy exchange of ideas. :-)

[redgunamo]

I'm drinking a warm beer right now, as it goes. #Major

Anyway, redgunamo types aren't undesirable.

You're too kind, A. Too kind.

I only get ice cold beer nowadays :-( #Brexit

[Peter]

There is some truth in that. Most of these little sh1tes would have been immensely improved by leaving school and 14 and being sent to a war.

When the 50s started pretty much all media, TV and social impulse was directed towards adults, or parents. Music on the radio was for your dad.

By the end of the 60s youth culture dominated everything. Imagining trying to parent all of that. ****ing nightmare! Obviously these days the idea that your kids would listen to different music to you and go out and take drugs and talk about politics seems perfectly natural. It must have been terrifying back then.

And now you cant even give them a thump when they play up. No wonder they act like a bunch of little ****ers.

[Peter]

I believe all that too, but I don't think a bit of gratuitious glamour hurts at all.

And I'm not silencing you, we are engaging in a healthy exchange of ideas. :-)

There is nothing wrong with enjoying looking at tits. Nobody should ever have to apologise for this.

[redgunamo]

This is what The Times THey Are A-Changing is all about. God, its like some of you werent even listening.....

Your old road is rapidly ageing, an all that....

Always listen to Bob... he knew his onions.

Of course I was listening. Why do you think I have half-a-dozen children :shrug:

[redgunamo]

There is nothing wrong with enjoying looking at tits. Nobody should ever have to apologise for this.

Yes. Objections can arise when one attempts to do this for free though, I gather #InternationalWomenDay

[redgunamo]

When the 50s started pretty much all media, TV and social impulse was directed towards adults, or parents. Music on the radio was for your dad.

By the end of the 60s youth culture dominated everything. Imagining trying to parent all of that. ****ing nightmare! Obviously these days the idea that your kids would listen to different music to you and go out and take drugs and talk about politics seems perfectly natural. It must have been terrifying back then.

And now you cant even give them a thump when they play up. No wonder they act like a bunch of little ****ers.

Trouble is, those adults had already lost all credibility because of The War. I mean, who is going to listen to, people whose beliefs and teachings and way of life had resulted in so much death and destruction.

[Burney]

When the 50s started pretty much all media, TV and social impulse was directed towards adults, or parents. Music on the radio was for your dad.

By the end of the 60s youth culture dominated everything. Imagining trying to parent all of that. ****ing nightmare! Obviously these days the idea that your kids would listen to different music to you and go out and take drugs and talk about politics seems perfectly natural. It must have been terrifying back then.

And now you cant even give them a thump when they play up. No wonder they act like a bunch of little ****ers.

The lack of violence to which most young middle class people are exposed these days is also extremely problematic. How can any young animal possibly expect to understand its place in the hierarchy without the occasional battering? If you ask me, there are few more educational moments in life than being punched in the face.

[Burney]

Trouble is, those adults had already lost all credibility because of The War. I mean, who is going to listen to, people whose beliefs and teachings and way of life had resulted in so much death and destruction.

Do you think? We were all in awe of our teachers who'd seen action. Even if the old buggers were useless in every other regard, the suggestion that they'd 'had a good war' meant they were afforded respect.

Mind you, I was at a proper school.

[Peter]

Yes. Objections can arise when one attempts to do this for free though, I gather #InternationalWomenDay

Its our Women's Conference tomorrow. I have the office to myself, no irritating chatter, no queue for a cup of tea while they **** about taking ****ing ages just to make a ****ing cup of coffee.

Lovely :)

[Peter]

The lack of violence to which most young middle class people are exposed these days is also extremely problematic. How can any young animal possibly expect to understand its place in the hierarchy without the occasional battering? If you ask me, there are few more educational moments in life than being punched in the face.

Hmmmmm... violence in the broader sense, yes. I vividly remember the first time a full back told me he was going to break my legs or a bowler told me the next few were all heading for my ears. I am not convinced that mindless violence taught me anything.

[Burney]

Hmmmmm... violence in the broader sense, yes. I vividly remember the first time a full back told me he was going to break my legs or a bowler told me the next few were all heading for my ears. I am not convinced that mindless violence taught me anything.

Oh, but mindless violence is very rare. Most violence has a very specific social purpose.

[Peter]

Oh, but mindless violence is very rare. Most violence has a very specific social purpose.

Like when a chap told me he was going to punch me in the face because he believed that my friend has let the kebab shop door close on him?

He was most confused when I responded by asking him to be moe specific with regard to the closing of the door.

[Burney]

Like when a chap told me he was going to punch me in the face because he believed that my friend has let the kebab shop door close on him?

He was most confused when I responded by asking him to be moe specific with regard to the closing of the door.

Exactly so. He was simply attempting to assert his dominance.

[Peter]

Exactly so. He was simply attempting to assert his dominance.

He told me he didnt like rock music but I think this was merely an excuse. It was Christmas Eve, he was ugly and poor and him an his mates wanted to punch some people they didnt like the look of.

I would say we fought them to a losing draw :)

[redgunamo]

Mind you, I was at a proper school.

Hardly! If it left you with a practically unshakeable belief in the pre-eminence and efficacy of Women's Lib.

That's the thing, see; life is ultimately a results business.

[redgunamo]

Corbs has weighed in on the matter: "Early evening socialisation benefits men who don’t feel the need to be at home looking after their children, and it discriminates against women who will want to, obviously, look after the children that they have got."





But the left would throw that exact same charge back at us. For example, in relation to gender equality, they'd say that we've grown complacent about the progress that's been made and that slipping back into the bad old days is a persistent threat, even if it doesn't feel like it.